Tesla PwrWall/Gateway shutdowns

[ggunn]

Without seeing the contract I of course am ultimately speculating, but I would bet that you are probably already obligated by contract to have paid your installer. If so, not paying may give you some 'leverage' short term, but longer term, depending on exactly what the contract says, it may give the contractor more leverage to say 'you never paid us, you're on your own, and no, we're not obligated to remove it for you for free or to service Tesla's warranty for no compensation'. If you drive them to a point where they feel you're such a pain in the ass that's it's not worth dealing with you even to collect a significant remaining balance, then they won't, especially if they would hold the advantage in a court of law because they really fulfilled their contract obligations (installing the system) and you didn't (pay them). i.e. they are not worried about being sued, they probably could sue you but won't because it's not worth their time, but they could wash their hands of you. Contractors are usually pretty busy people. If you think it makes sense to punish them financially for something that's hardly their fault, good luck with that. Paying them but threatening a bad public review might give you better leverage than not paying them. Teaming up with them to put pressure on Tesla might be another strategy to consider, too.

Having been the customer and the contractor in some different situations I can sympathize with both sides. From the customer's POV the contractor is the single contact point and it doesn't make any difference to him which entity on the other side of that point is responsible for the failure; it's on the contractor to make it right. From the contractor's POV it is very frustrating if the equipment does not perform as advertised. The contractor must be very careful not to make any promises that they are not rock solid sure they can deliver. In this case, to my knowledge Tesla has not blessed the PowerWall to be run in perpetual off grid mode, so the contractor is in a sticky situation. I am glad it's not us.

In my company, the service support headaches we have with battery systems are disproportionally numerous and painful compared to the number of straight grid tied systems we build. It's almost not worth it.

 

[ramsy]

..If you have any better ideas, I'd love to hear them. .

Apparently after personally donating $250,000 to Puerto Rico, Elon Musk halted Power Wall shipments due to price gouging (see article):

Tesla to stop Powerwall shipments to installers price gouging in Puerto Rico

 

[caribconsult]

The ongoing Tesla issues

The ongoing Tesla issues

TO RAMSY: all of what you said may be true, and I know we paid top price at the time because the demand for solar systems was through the roof when you factor in the condition of the local power company then. But we didn't get a donated unit, we paid retail to a retailer, and as the previous poster points out, that is our point of contact, and it's up to them to make it right. Tesla will stand behind them.

The heart of the problem is the seller's lousy inter-office communications. A call to person A to ask them to tell person B blah blah blah never gets to person B, or person C has to approve it and it never gets to person C's desk. This is not unknown here as SOP for running an office....we see it in many places and if there's anything that holds back local businesses it's that, but I'm not here to give a course on biz admin. I want my system set right, and if putting squeeze on the seller is how, that's what it will be.

 

[ggunn]

TO RAMSY: all of what you said may be true, and I know we paid top price at the time because the demand for solar systems was through the roof when you factor in the condition of the local power company then. But we didn't get a donated unit, we paid retail to a retailer, and as the previous poster points out, that is our point of contact, and it's up to them to make it right. Tesla will stand behind them.

The heart of the problem is the seller's lousy inter-office communications. A call to person A to ask them to tell person B blah blah blah never gets to person B, or person C has to approve it and it never gets to person C's desk. This is not unknown here as SOP for running an office....we see it in many places and if there's anything that holds back local businesses it's that, but I'm not here to give a course on biz admin. I want my system set right, and if putting squeeze on the seller is how, that's what it will be.

Does the contractor have a track record of building/selling systems like this, or is it a one-off or first time thing for them? Is the system their design or yours? I agree that unless you designed the system you should not be the one dealing with Tesla. Either the PowerWall is causing the glitch or the system design is at fault, and figuring out which it is and fixing it if it can be fixed should not be your problem.

 

[gadfly56]

Does the contractor have a track record of building/selling systems like this, or is it a one-off or first time thing for them? Is the system their design or yours? I agree that unless you designed the system you should not be the one dealing with Tesla. Either the PowerWall is causing the glitch or the system design is at fault, and figuring out which it is and fixing it if it can be fixed should not be your problem.

The OP has said several times that this was the installer's design, soup to nuts.

 

[ggunn]

The OP has said several times that this was the installer's design, soup to nuts.

Well then, as I said, the contractor is on the hook to make the system perform as they claimed it would when they sold the project. Here's hoping they did their homework and a) the equipment is capable of working like they told the customer it would, and b) they know how to configure it so it will. Without going into a lot of detail, I'll just say that so far we have had nothing but headaches trying to make Tesla batteries work in off grid systems.

 

[caribconsult]

The ongoing Tesla issues

The ongoing Tesla issues

ABOUT THE SELLER: They are the biggest solar company around here, with offices here in PR and two in S. Florida. Solar is ALL they do, they have a wide variety of gear available, and they specced out our system. We only said we wanted the Tesla battery, not a bank of lead-acid or marine batteries.

GGUN, please tell me more about the issues you've encountered with off-grid Tesla systems. Anything like what ours is doing?

Our system does everything it's supposed to- batteries charge, panels shut down when battery is full, battery lasts appropriately, power is clean, everything looks right in both the direct UI (installer showed me how to access this) and the app, which gives a lot more information. As previously noted, the seller recently worked with Tesla to upgrade our software to 1.15.7. Perhaps that will cure it.

The problem is it's also doing something it shouldn't, which is unexpectedly shutting down, and this is not related to load, time of day, presence or absence of sun...seemingly no pattern. The power to the house just goes off and then usually resets itself in a few seconds, sometimes a minute or two, and then functions normally for day and weeks. Is this what you folks are seeing? And why should the presence or absence of the grid have anything to do with this? The system is supposed to function as a backup when the grid fails. And yes, Tesla has said we can operated as a full-time backup system with the grid off. That's what we do - full time in backup mode because we get enough sun from about 9am -12noon to recharge the battery full and that will take us through the evening, night and into the next morn when it will recharge if there's sun. No AM sun (rare) = turn on the grid for two or three hours, charge the battery, and then shut it off. Our grid bill for last two months has been 5 and 7 bucks.

It appears you have extensive experience with Tesla, and I'd love to have a phone chat with you if you're available. PM me a phone number if you could, please. Or email me at jeff@tcconsult.net

Thanks very much for your input and understanding of the situation vis-a-vis me, the seller and Tesla, and just who is primarily responsible here. I didn't buy this system to become the engineer in charge but it's starting to feel that way!

 

[ramsy]

..everything looks right in both the direct UI (installer showed me how to access this) and the app, which gives a lot more information.

Is there a way to check battery temperature, or a history of over-temperature events?

Found a Tesla Power-Wall spec @ 120°F for Max battery Temp.

Some attic & garage spaces are 130°+ during Southern California summer days, and tropical Puerto Rico is much warmer than California.

 

[ggunn]

ABOUT THE SELLER: They are the biggest solar company around here, with offices here in PR and two in S. Florida. Solar is ALL they do, they have a wide variety of gear available, and they specced out our system. We only said we wanted the Tesla battery, not a bank of lead-acid or marine batteries.

GGUN, please tell me more about the issues you've encountered with off-grid Tesla systems. Anything like what ours is doing?

Which PowerWall is it? It is interesting that Tesla told you that it can run perpetually off grid; they told us that we could not do that. We had a bad experience with a customer who insisted that we use a PowerWall 1 for his off grid system. We tried, but eventually we had to replace it with lead acid.

 

[gadfly56]

Which PowerWall is it? It is interesting that Tesla told you that it can run perpetually off grid; they told us that we could not do that. We had a bad experience with a customer who insisted that we use a PowerWall 1 for his off grid system. We tried, but eventually we had to replace it with lead acid.

If you go to their web site, they say you can be off grid for up to seven days. They cap that based on the probability of getting a cloudy day at some point. I couldn't find a model number for their current PowerWall offering on their site, but others indicate they are now on 2.0. In fact, data sheets and manuals in general are in short supply at Tesla.

 

[caribconsult]

Is there a way to check battery temperature, or a history of over-temperature events?

Found a Tesla Power-Wall spec @ 120°F for Max battery Temp.

Some attic & garage spaces are 130°+ during Southern California summer days, and tropical Puerto Rico is much warmer than California.

Ours is downstairs in an enclosed space, probably the coolest spot in the house. Temperature isn't an issue, I don't believe. The case may get a wee bit warm to the touch in some spots but never hot. And the air temp down there is usually in the 70's to low 80's.

 

[caribconsult]

Which PowerWall is it? It is interesting that Tesla told you that it can run perpetually off grid; they told us that we could not do that. We had a bad experience with a customer who insisted that we use a PowerWall 1 for his off grid system. We tried, but eventually we had to replace it with lead acid.

It appears to be a PW2 from the bill. It doesn't say anywhere on the case, I don't think. So misinformation from Tesla is nothing new, apparently. We've been told numerous times it is perfectly acceptable to run it as a full time, non-connected to the grid system, and I fail to see why that isn't so. If it's not overheating and it's not overloaded, and it's well-charged, just what is the problem with the battery? I sense it's something in the frequency shifting control, which sounds like a real rube goldberg way to regulate the output of the panels. But then again, that doesn't account for the nighttime shutdowns, when there's no solar. It's just the battery. I will say, it's been running a week now like this since the software upgrade and no burps. Let us pray.

Thanks again to all who've contributed here. Collective wisdom is a wonderful thing. Thanks.

 

[caribconsult]

Light at the end of the tunnel?

Light at the end of the tunnel?

It is with great hesitancy I say this, but so far our system has been behaving itself since the technician came on May 16, and with the assistance of the Tesla folks on the phone, discovered that our system didn't have the latest firmware or software or BIOS or whatever they call it. And between the tech and Tesla they were able to upgrade it on-line and since that date it has not shut itself down. I've seen one or two "quicker-than-the eye-can-follow" blinks but no full shutdowns. And everything else is working normally, as before. Zeus may be smiling.

Once again, a very grateful thank you to all the posters who took the time to consider my problem and did everything known to man to offer advice, help and suggestions. Thank you all!

 

[Sierrasparky]

Glad for you it is working now.
Appreciate the updates.

 

[caribconsult]

Ooops! Might have spoke too soon

Ooops! Might have spoke too soon

Sorry to have to report this, but the Tesla system, after running almost 3 weeks flawlessly, 'burped' twice this past week, Tuesday June 5 and again on Thursday, June 7. Both were very quick, the first one so quick my UPS didn't catch it. The second one def was caught by the UPS, and we visually saw both. During the daytime, low load, battery well-charged. Whatever the firmware update did, the issue is still there. I really am not sure what to do here except press Tesla to authorize the dealer to give us a new battery and gateway.

 

[caribconsult]

Dead in the water

Dead in the water

On June 14 the PW shut down and will not restart. No pilot light, no output, no noises from the gateway, nada. DOA. I have taken this up with the owner of the installer company as well as Tesla and either they will replace it under warranty, or I will use the money I owe them to get it replaced myself. None of them are showing any particular urgency here. I am totally disgusted with both of them, the installer particularly. Under the terms of the 10 year warranty, Tesla backs the warranty and the installer is supposed to be our representative in getting this done, but I don't see much representing going on.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Sounds like Tesla has some issues.

 

[gadfly56]

On June 14 the PW shut down and will not restart. No pilot light, no output, no noises from the gateway, nada. DOA. I have taken this up with the owner of the installer company as well as Tesla and either they will replace it under warranty, or I will use the money I owe them to get it replaced myself. None of them are showing any particular urgency here. I am totally disgusted with both of them, the installer particularly. Under the terms of the 10 year warranty, Tesla backs the warranty and the installer is supposed to be our representative in getting this done, but I don't see much representing going on.

I'm very sorry for the troubles you've been through. It sounded like you had a good niche use for the Powerwall and although I don't have much use for Musk and his vaporware, I'm all for his tech where it's appropriate. The additionally unfortunate reality is that assuming best case response and they get you another Powerwall pronto, who knows how long it will last?

 

[ggunn]

On June 14 the PW shut down and will not restart. No pilot light, no output, no noises from the gateway, nada. DOA. I have taken this up with the owner of the installer company as well as Tesla and either they will replace it under warranty, or I will use the money I owe them to get it replaced myself. None of them are showing any particular urgency here. I am totally disgusted with both of them, the installer particularly. Under the terms of the 10 year warranty, Tesla backs the warranty and the installer is supposed to be our representative in getting this done, but I don't see much representing going on.

I'm sorry to hear you are having problems. FWIW, despite what you apparently have been told, Tesla has told my company that the PowerWall 2 is not certified for sustained off grid operation.

 

[ramsy]

I'm sorry to hear you are having problems. FWIW, despite what you apparently have been told, Tesla has told my company that the PowerWall 2 is not certified for sustained off grid operation.

Lithium batteries are not suitable for constant recharge cyclng, like a super capacitor or a lead-acid car battery, constantly recharged by vehicle alternators.

Lithium batteries lose capacity after each recharge, and fail after a few thousand cycles. If the lithium cells are arranged as First Charged First Discharged (FIFO), rather than First Charged Last Discharged (FILO), then the First cells charged are discharging First & suffering all the cycling wear & tear, while the rest of the battery gets little use.