Tesla PwrWall/Gateway shutdowns

[Fulthrotl]

have been reading with interest......

have been reading with interest......

i've not done anything with solar personally. installs, or a system of my own.

and spewing online about tesla's poor integrity, imho will have little effect.

Puerto Rico at large should have ample evidence that lack of support and integrity,
reported online, simply get lost in the cacophony of reports of the same, on a global
level.

and to be honest, around here, we've had a number of solar contractor drop
off the grid of late. my wholesale house just had another one bite the dust,
with $250k owed. so these guys might have a LOT of issues more concerned
with corporate survival than a warranty claim.

now that it's bricked, they need to send a unit to replace it. in theory.

we seem to have a systematic failure across a lot of our corporations and institutions.

i put in a two FOIA requests at the state department. nothing exotic, just routine information,
dating back to the 1950's. one request was filled in a couple months.

the second one, of similar nature, hasn't been filled yet. it's been sixteen months. they cashed
the fee for the search, but there is nobody left at state to answer the phones, so to speak.

tesla is so overwhelmed, i'm guessing, that there is not really anyone there whose wheels aren't
coming off. seriously. this is a company that is currently trying to build cars in a tent.

lotta smoke. not so much forward momentum.

 

[caribconsult]

Latest developments

Latest developments

I finally managed to contact the Tesla Regional Accounts manager and he's been helpful. Tesla wants yet another shot at fixing this and they are coming (or sending Maximo techs) in two days to install some additional equipment, I'm not sure exactly what. The description I heard on the phone sounded like electronic double-talk, but we'll see. It sounded like some sort of load stabilizer, and despite my telling them that the problem is not load related, they want to waste some more time. I have to let them. Tesla says if it fails again they will replace the battery and gateway.

Whether or not I go for replacement is a big decision. I'm not impressed with the stability of Tesla, and customer service is almost useless from them and actually useless from the installer, Maximo Solar of Aguadilla, PR.

So I am requesting some help here: what other viable storage options are there? We have a good panel setup, 21 panels and it cranks out 5+Kw in any sort of sunlight, around 4Kw even in cloudy but bright light. I think each panel has its own inverter mounted under the panel. Serial and model numbers available on request. I'd need to replace the battery and the gateway/transfer switch. What suggestions do you posters have? I like the compactness of the Tesla, in fact I like everything about it except it doesn't work right 100% of the time. So I'm open to suggestions for alternative storage and switching options.

 

[gadfly56]

I finally managed to contact the Tesla Regional Accounts manager and he's been helpful. Tesla wants yet another shot at fixing this and they are coming (or sending Maximo techs) in two days to install some additional equipment, I'm not sure exactly what. The description I heard on the phone sounded like electronic double-talk, but we'll see. It sounded like some sort of load stabilizer, and despite my telling them that the problem is not load related, they want to waste some more time. I have to let them. Tesla says if it fails again they will replace the battery and gateway.

Whether or not I go for replacement is a big decision. I'm not impressed with the stability of Tesla, and customer service is almost useless from them and actually useless from the installer, Maximo Solar of Aguadilla, PR.

So I am requesting some help here: what other viable storage options are there? We have a good panel setup, 21 panels and it cranks out 5+Kw in any sort of sunlight, around 4Kw even in cloudy but bright light. I think each panel has its own inverter mounted under the panel. Serial and model numbers available on request. I'd need to replace the battery and the gateway/transfer switch. What suggestions do you posters have? I like the compactness of the Tesla, in fact I like everything about it except it doesn't work right 100% of the time. So I'm open to suggestions for alternative storage and switching options.

Would LG's product work for you?

http://www.lgchem.com/global/ess/ess/product-detail-PDEC0001

 

[ramsy]

Would LG's product work for you?

http://www.lgchem.com/global/ess/ess/product-detail-PDEC0001

Trading one Lithium Ion problem for another makes no sense to me, this is what you really need:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmHY9DkD1Hw

 

[gadfly56]

Trading one Lithium Ion problem for another makes no sense to me, this is what you really need:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmHY9DkD1Hw

That's a little like saying all internal combustion engines are the same, and a Mercedes is no better than a Lada, you might as well get a bicycle. :roll:

 

[caribconsult]

That's a little like saying all internal combustion engines are the same and a Mercedes is no better than a Lada, you might as well get a bicycle. :roll:

Some are more helpful than others. The LG solution is worth looking into. I don't think all Li-Io batteries are identical and I think the Tesla problem is more likely in the gateway, or some of the electronics in the battery, not the battery itself. Supposedly they are coming to 'fix' it Friday. I wonder what kind of Rube Goldberg solution they are coming up with? And I further wonder why they don't just replace it instead of wasting more technician time on this.

 

[caribconsult]

Would LG's product work for you?

http://www.lgchem.com/global/ess/ess/product-detail-PDEC0001

It's certainly worth looking into. I didn't know LG had such a thing. I will post when I find out more about this. Thanks for a good tip. I just went to the website and I didn't see any phone numbers anywhere. I sent them two messages to have a tech rep call me, or provide a phone number. Let's see what sort of response I get.

 

[gadfly56]

Some are more helpful than others. The LG solution is worth looking into. I don't think all Li-Io batteries are identical and I think the Tesla problem is more likely in the gateway, or some of the electronics in the battery, not the battery itself. Supposedly they are coming to 'fix' it Friday. I wonder what kind of Rube Goldberg solution they are coming up with? And I further wonder why they don't just replace it instead of wasting more technician time on this.

Almost always companies would rather replace something under warranty than refund your money. The cost-of-goods-sold (COGS) may be as little as a third or quarter of the retail price charged. If the battery COGS is $1,500 it is far cheaper for them to send you another gratis than give back your $6,000. Take the old equipment back to the shop and tinker there rather than making multiple trips to the customer's site. There must be another dynamic in motion here.

 

[caribconsult]

Almost always companies would rather replace something under warranty than refund your money. The cost-of-goods-sold (COGS) may be as little as a third or quarter of the retail price charged. If the battery COGS is $1,500 it is far cheaper for them to send you another gratis than give back your $6,000. Take the old equipment back to the shop and tinker there rather than making multiple trips to the customer's site. There must be another dynamic in motion here.

One would certainly think so. I suggested this to them a few times but it doesn't seem to dawn on them that they are wasting more time and money trying to fix something that has failed 25+ times. I asked the Tesla guy: "how many times does this thing have to fail before you declare it defective?" and he hesitated to reply. They are supposed to guarantee this gear for 10 years but it looks like they will do anything to avoid replacing it. As I noted before, and I think you saw it previously, I have a very powerful weapon, actually 10,000 of them, on my side here. It's the installer's money but they are not getting paid until this thing works right, and if some think that's unfair, well everybody has their own opinion. I have no other leverage. You would also think the installer would put some pressure on Tesla, under these circumstances. They did refer me to the Tesla regional account manager, but that's not exactly a high-pressure effort. I've written to the prez of the installer company and I think their way of dealing with complaints is to just delegate it to someone else and get it off their desk, problem solved, as far as they are concerned. Terrible customer service. I regret buy this from them more than words can say. They did a nice job installing it, but their followup is awful.


I'll know more after they come Friday. Even if they get it working, it's going to have at least a two month probationary period before I sign off on this.

Thanks for your input, as always.

 

[jaggedben]

Would LG's product work for you?

http://www.lgchem.com/global/ess/ess/product-detail-PDEC0001

He would probably have to have the solar array rebuilt.
We install LG with SolarEdge, I think it's one of the best available solutions. But with these things you're often committed once you start down the road. You don't want to pay for it twice because the first time didn't work.

 

[caribconsult]

He would probably have to have the solar array rebuilt.
We install LG with SolarEdge, I think it's one of the best available solutions. But with these things you're often committed once you start down the road. You don't want to pay for it twice because the first time didn't work.

Rebuilt in what way? Of course I don't want to pay for something twice but what about my existing array would be incompatible with using the LG battery?

 

[ramsy]

Rebuilt in what way? Of course I don't want to pay for something twice but what about my existing array would be incompatible with using the LG battery?

As in complete redesign, if Tesla engineers tell you recharge cycles are too frequent due to installers problematic design.

 

[ggunn]

As in complete redesign, if Tesla engineers tell you recharge cycles are too frequent due to installers problematic design.

Have you any documentation to support that? We've dealt with Tesla quite a bit for backup systems, and I've never seen anything from them that says that recharge cycles have a minimum time interval. They have told us (as I have said before) that the PowerWall 2 is not supported for sustained off grid use.

 

[caribconsult]

Light at the end of the tunnel?

Light at the end of the tunnel?

Okay, I get the point about switching one part of the system and how I"d be inviting a raft of incompatibility issues into the situation, and rewiring the new inverters. Plus, I did some checking, and the Tesla PW2 is a far better deal than the LG, or the Sonnen (? not sure of that name), not to mention finding someone who knows how to make a hybrid system work, and if I had problems with it, who would I call? And would they just point the finger at the other vendor? All legit concerns, so I'm not going to go that route.

Now for some positive news: I had two of the top techs from the installer company here yesterday, and another fellow tech from Enphase Energy, who makes the inverter(s) in this setup. First, they got the PW fired up by reprogramming some part of it. Since they speak Spanish to each other and my Spanish is limited, I'm not sure exactly what was re-programmed, but it is working again. Also, they installed a new box containing an Enphase Envoy. I'm not exactly sure what it does but I think it controls panel output, which I don't believe was the initial problem causing shutdowns, but I have to let them do their thing. All is now working and I am getting a visit from 3 of Tesla's top techies next week to go over my system and verify that all is to spec. Through this agonizing experience, I've made contact with Tesla's top guy in Puerto Rico and he's been extremely helpful, especially at getting the local installer's butt in gear. So we're in "watch and see" mode right now. I'll need to see this rig work without problems for at least two months before I sign off and pay the balance I owe the installer. Tesla has also stated that if they are unable to correct the problem they will replace the PW and the Gateway, so I feel more confident that we are on the right track.

More as it develops. Thanks to all contributors.

 

[caribconsult]

So far, so good.

So far, so good.

Four days into the new setup and all is well so far. I'm beginning to see what the Enphase Envoy does; it controls the panel output more judiciously than the original gateway, which is still in place. Panel output now goes to the house more often, output seems to be reduced just a bit but that's hard to say for sure. We've had only filtered sun recently, not full-on clear skies, so measuring max panel output right now is iffy, but nonetheless, the battery is usually 98% by 12:30pm. That's about right, I think.

With the Tesla app, I can watch the power flow go from the panels or the battery to the house, as load/sunlight permit. The switch-overs are seamless and occur frequently, so I'd say it's working right, and all indications previously from Tesla were that my shutdown issues were somehow related to this switching over. How that explains nighttime shutdowns I don't quite grasp, but I am certainly no expert on solar generation and storage.

A nice feature is the website interface from Enphase that lets you examine the whole array, panel by panel, showing output for each individual panel at any given moment of the day, week, month, etc. Spotting a weak or failing panel is much easier now. The Envoy sends periodic data updates via my wifi and internet to Enphase and the website puts it all together in a very comprehensible fashion.

The website interface shows every component of the Envoy system and its current status. Nice. Informative. I suspect that both Tesla and the installer (Maximo Solar of Aguadilla) are realizing the Envoy needs to be a part of this system and will probably include it with new installations. They didn't charge us one cent for both the hardware and the installation, so points to both of them for finally showing some appropriate customer service. In two days, a team from Tesla is coming here to examine this space-age setup and verify whatever they can. It's nice to see some concern from them, but they (Tesla) really didn't know the extent of the issue until almost 3 months after installation. Their regional manager has been the one who got this ball rolling.

Will it last at least 2 months? That's the question and we'll know around Labor Day if this setup is stable or not.

And one last item: I have it very recently from Tesla's top techies that off-grid operation, as we use, is not a problem. Perhaps it was at one time, with earlier versions of PW, but that's not the case any longer with PW2, and I think this is from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Your mileage may vary but Tesla says otherwise!

Questions and suggestions always welcome, and thanks again to all previous posters. The discussion here has helped me immensely in wrapping my head around this very new (to me!) technology.

 

[caribconsult]

Visit from Tesla's top engineer here.

Visit from Tesla's top engineer here.

Thursday, July 5th, the Tesla team, including their top engineer, was here. Also, the top engineer from the installer company. They went over it wire by wire, actually had a wiring diagram to verify, and naturally found nothing wrong other than the ground was actually about 1 volt above ground, but that was not considered serious. It took a bit of explanation to describe the functions of the various breakers and switches I have, but they examined it and pronounced it all fit. They also explained the phenomenon of our clocks running fast was due to the frequency shifts the system uses as a signaling channel. Who knew?

So why was it doing what it was doing? The Tesla engineer explained that Tesla has the ability to enter the system via their VPN internet link, and they can make updates and settings changes and even reboot the system. They just assume you have the grid connected full time, in which case there would be no power interruption as the grid kicked in while the tesla rebooted and then resumed command of the system. Since we run off-grid 99.99% of the time, the reboot would cause a momentary shutdown and power outage since there was no grid backup, and then the Tesla would re-activate, which is exactly what it was doing. Repeated episodes of this might have resulted in corruption of the gateway firmware. This is the first analysis from anyone involved that covers all known symptoms and it may be just that simple.

They (the Tesla guys) said that they'd take me off the auto update list, and notify me when one was ready to be pushed out and we could coordinate and experiment a bit. I think I"m going to ask them to also take me off the "let's play with it and reboot it" list without prior email notification. Give me a time frame and we'll turn on the grid and see what happens. They understand that leaving the grid on full time could cause problems with the local power company unless they can turn off the export option in the gateway. That may happen via update. They are also planning an auto update email operation where you can accept the time they offer or request a reschedule. That sounds like customer service to me. I think the Tesla guy may have figured it out. Being able to reach out high enough in the Tesla food chain was the door that opened up, no doubt. So now I have two Tesla guys as well as the Enphase Envoy (which works like a champ) guy watching my system. Can't get much better than that. Anyone who wants to know more about the Enphase Envoy, feel free to PM me or post here. I'll respond.

I am so grateful. As we say here in Puerto Rico: "no hay palabras suficientes."

 

[jaggedben]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing the info.

 

[gadfly56]

Sound like the final chapter to this story has been written. Now, are you ready for this year's hurricane season? Battery and inverter won't help if the panels blow away.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Sound like the final chapter to this story has been written. Now, are you ready for this year's hurricane season? Battery and inverter won't help if the panels blow away.

Gee you just had to say that

 

[gadfly56]

Gee you just had to say that

Yep, I'm a little ray of sunshine, I am.