twisting groundwires

[George Stolz]

Re: twisting groundwires

And there is a signifigant difference in a crimp made by a hand tool and one made with a ratcheted crimping tool. I say that not to imply that you need to use a fancy ratcheted tool but to illustrate that there are degrees of quality in a crimp.

SAM! HOW DARE YOU bring a tool to my attention I didn't know existed. What the heck is a ratcheted crimping tool???

 

[tkb]

Re: twisting groundwires

Check out the Ideal Crimpmaster
Crimpmaster

Remember not to hit the man on the head while using your nines to build your house.

 

[physis]

Re: twisting groundwires

IT DOESN'T MATTER GEORGE, it probably wouldn't fit in the box anyway.

Actually it's also a hand tool. The ratchet refuses to release the lug until the crimp is did (did ) and the die isn't so approximate. But the reason I mention it is because I used to be convinced that I could do any crimp just fine and I could. But after using a real crimping tool and producing real crimps the difference was clear and undeniable.

I could still go out and do it with my side cutters, but I also know the difference.

 

[iwire]

Re: twisting groundwires

George In my mind the answer is obvious, it is not a sales pitch, it is not a conspiracy

IMO there is one word that explains it.

Lawyers.

 

[tkb]

Re: twisting groundwires

I think that a lot of people think the crimp sleeves are for grounding.
I know they have been around for more than 40 years as a wire splicing connector.
They are crimped on the splice then a plastic snap-on cap, a rubber cap with a holding ring, or a rubber cap that has a ring the is looped under the splice and then over the head of the cap is used.
When I first got into the trade, these were the only splice connectors that we were allowed to use for general splicing.
It seems that they have been used as a grounding splice connector for NM for a while.

 

[electricman2]

Re: twisting groundwires

Does anybody use these by
T&B?

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: twisting groundwires

IMO the things are junk.

But, I stopped my supply house today and saw the Ideal #410 crimps. I remembered this thread so I thought I'd take a look at the package.

Here's what it says:

Ideal #410 Crimps

Crimp with Ideal Electrician's Pliers, Models 420 or 430; OR Ideal Crimp Tool Models 425(using the small crimp die), 428 or 429(using the "bare" crimp die).
Insulate with Ideal Model 415 Wrap Cap.

The Ideal Models 420 and 430 are Lineman Pliers with a single crimp die very similar to the Klien's.

95-99% of the one's I've seen in the field were installed incorrectly. All ground wires but one are always cut off so short, they don't even make it outside the box, or the crimp is at the edge of the box, as someone has used the box as a fulcrum point.
They are almost always loose. Not a good thing to have loose ground wires.

Bob,
contrary to you, I don't like the Greenies. Just one more item to stock, and 95-98% of those splices that I've seen had all but the one wire cut off inside or just at the edge of the box. Same as the crimps. Makes any future work inside the box a pain.
And we are talking in device boxes here aren't we?

It seems like there is no training involved when it comes to these things. Just give them to guys and send them off. 'Slide on and give a squeeze, are you done yet?' (don't go there)

I don't like them, I don't
I won't buy them, I won't
I refuse them, won't use them
Or even excuse them.

(sorry just read Dr. Seuss to the little ones)

 

[peter d]

Re: twisting groundwires

I'm a Greenie guy myself.

 

[charlie]

Re: twisting groundwires

Todd, that was great, my wife even liked it. Very cool.

 

[pierre]

Re: twisting groundwires

Not trying to start the new year off with a trouble maker, just some food for thought .

Ideal does not list the barrel type connectors for grounding. Page A-27 and A-28 (Ideal's catalog) show the types of barrel connectors.

" Copper crimp connector is UL 486C Listed only"
(from the catalog)
UL 467 is listing for grounding.
I called Ideal and the technician said that if I take a close look at the catalog, that I would see that they only show insulated phase colored conductors used as an example and that they have not "tested" the barrel type connector for grounding purposes.
He also mentioned that extending a conductor past the end of the barrel is not suggested.
HMMM! does this mean all of those equipment grounding splices are incorrect?

 

[iwire]

Re: twisting groundwires

Good morning Pierre or should I say trouble maker.

That is interesting and I have run into this before.

When you use Wiremold Plug strips you can get some push-in style connectors with it to make the connections easer in the small space provided.

However these connectors are only listed for the circuit conductors, they are not to be used for connecting the grounding conductors.

The instructions clearly show using two push-in connectors for the white and black while using a wire nut on the grounding conductor.

This makes little sense to me, any fault current imposed on the grounding conductor will be equal to the fault current on the ungrounded conductor.

 

[pierre]

Re: twisting groundwires

Good morning and happy new year Bob
I am going to push the envelope this year - it is how I learn the most. especially from the forums.

I wonder if this has any merit to it, or is it the manufacturers protecting their asssseeettts!

Pierre

[ January 01, 2005, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]

 

[peter d]

Re: twisting groundwires

Originally posted by pierre:

HMMM! does this mean all of those equipment grounding splices are incorrect?

Hmmmm....I would say there is a good chance they answer is "Yes" based on the information you provided.

I have noticed a few things about the "ground crimps" myself:

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">-Many installers simply crush them with their pliers, rather than crimp them.
  
  -They are often used on far too many conductors, resulting in an almost ineffective connection, since they can't be crimped when stuffed to capacity.
  
  -When crimped with the pliers that George posted, the crimp die will crush right through the barrel and destroy it.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
I guess the aforementioned is a moot point since they can't be used for grounding conductors anyway.


This gives me even more reasons to stick with the Greenies.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: twisting groundwires

The copper sleeves stink. I should have clarified earlier that I use the steel ones. They do a'ight.

What originally turned me off of greens is that a certain brand (it's been long enough now that I've forgotten which) were manufactured so that you had to focus, concentrate, and will the greenie onto #12 wire--the hole in the green was too small. Often I'd slide to where I thought I'd gone far enough, start twisting, to find I was a 16th shy of actually engaging the threads of the wire nut. After fumbling with these for a day or two I started shopping around.

Peter-I resolved the tininess issue by throwing a small magnet into my pouch, which I flip whenever I'm running low. Works good.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: twisting groundwires

He also mentioned that extending a conductor past the end of the barrel is not suggested.
HMMM! does this mean all of those equipment grounding splices are incorrect?

How would the crimp know if a conductor was used for a device? I slide the crimp on a 16th (at least) past all conductors when I crimp.

 

[charlie]

Re: twisting groundwires

This makes little sense to me, any fault current imposed on the grounding conductor will be equal to the fault current on the ungrounded conductor.

Bob, if a connection fails during a fault what is the problem? If it is a phase conductor, it has effectively burned open and it is safe . . . the rest of the circuit doesn't work but it is safe. If it is a grounding conductor that has a fault and the connector fails, the frame of something is hot. I wonder if the manufacturer has the connectors listed where the testing is just for load current as opposed to their use in a grounding circuit where they are required to carry fault current?

 

[iwire]

Re: twisting groundwires

Originally posted by charlie:
Bob, if a connection fails during a fault what is the problem? If it is a phase conductor, it has effectively burned open and it is safe . . . the rest of the circuit doesn't work but it is safe.

Hmmm, I think that may be the utility guy in you coming out.

 

[iwire]

Re: twisting groundwires

Originally posted by georgestolz:
The copper sleeves stink. I should have clarified earlier that I use the steel ones. They do a'ight.

I have only had experience with the copper ones, I might change my mind about these if I try the steel ones.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: twisting groundwires

Bob, a whole, new world opens up.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: twisting groundwires

Originally posted by charlie:
Todd, that was great, my wife even liked it. Very cool.

Good morning Charlie. Glad you liked it.
That was Tylenol Cold Daytime with a bit of bubbly on top.
Probably why I couldn't sleep.
Tylenol Cold Night Time finally kicked in.

And of course 3 screaming kids at 6:00 am makes for a great alarm clock. Just wish I could 'hit' snooze.

Back on topic:

Maybe you're onto something with the grounding issue. It's almost like having loose EMT fitting screws when the conduit is used for grounding purposes.