Inspector's responsibility

[websparky]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

Hi Guys,

Brian wrote:

There is really nothing tricky about this at all. Inspectors simply cannot make or enforce changes to installations of design that are not in violation of the code.

I agree in principle with his statement above.
However, I believe when we make all encompassing statements such as this, it helps to undermine the overall intent of the inspector's responsibilities and authority.

There are times when we do not agree with certain decisions inspectors make and sometimes these decisions are indeed erroneous. Other times there are certain details and logic that support his decision unbeknownst to us.
I believe many electricians and tradesmen do not fully comprehend the duties, responsibilities and authority of the AHJ or CBO and therefore make judgements that are based on incomplete information.

As stated before, the code is the minimum standard we are to follow. This goes both ways. When an inspector requests or demands certain changes that appear to be outside of the minimum requirements of the code, we automatically think he is over-stepping his authority. Since we do not have all of the facts nor the responsibility for the approval of an electrical installation, maybe we should reconsider our first reaction and try to see it from another's perspective.

To help explain where I am coming from, please review;
90.4 Enforcement

Approved. Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction.

Authority Having Jurisdiction. The organization, office, or individual responsible for approving equipment, materials, an installation, or a procedure.

This is not intended to be offensive to anyone. It is meerly offered as my peronal opinion.

 

[peter d]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

Dave, you make a good point, but I don't think anyone is trying to undermine the inspectors authority.

Let's look at the specific issue here, conductors that are upsized for voltage drop.
Pierre's example of the big box stores is an excellent case where this occurs all over the place.

An inspector can't require a 100 amp breaker for parking lot lights just because the conductors are increased to #2 for VD. How is this circuit for the garage any different?

 

[iwire]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

Dave you certainly do not come across as offensive to me and I hope my post is not offensive to anyone either.

I can only speak to how things are where I work.

The AHJ is not the inspector, the inspector simply can not make any electrician go beyond what is written in the NEC or the amendments adopted by the AHJ, which in this area is a state agency.

It is patently unfair to contractors to have inspectors making there own rules.

Here an inspector can only inspect they have no power to 'make code' no matter how well intentioned they may be.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

Originally posted by brian john:
The inspector is wrong, wrong, wrong............

Ditto, Ditto, Ditto

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

Originally posted by iwire:

I can only speak to how things are where I work.

The AHJ is not the inspector, the inspector simply can not make any electrician go beyond what is written in the NEC or the amendments adopted by the AHJ, which in this area is a state agency.

It is patently unfair to contractors to have inspectors making there own rules.

Here an inspector can only inspect they have no power to 'make code' no matter how well intentioned they may be.

Bob, I agree, and would like to throw this out...

In my area, the AHJ is a STATE agency, not an Inspector.

On this site, people commonly refer to the inspector as 'the AHJ'

How is it across the country? Does anybody work where the Inspector is in actuallity the AHJ?

That ,to me, could easily be a conflict of interest.
Todd

 

[websparky]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

Hi Peter,

Just to clarify, I was refering to this one example only "It turns out that the inspector just preferred to protect against a future homeowner seeing......" and certainly do not condone the actions by inspectors in most of the other examples offered.

In my jurisdiction we are faced with many of the big box store's advice being followed by the home owner and sometimes the advice is no where close to code compliance.

However, as many here have stated in various examples of inspector craziness, I whole heartedly agree that an inspector can not meerly invent new methods and expect someone to blindly follow.

Where I am employed as a Building Inspector, we carry the authority of THE AHJ when performing code inspections. When there is a dispute, the contractor or home owner has the ability and the encouragement of the inspector to contact THE AHJ and ask for an explanation of the inspector's decision. THE AHJ then handles it from there.

Now I realize that this is not necessarily the way things are done in other parts of this country and things can get crazy. For those that work in crazy environments, I can appreciate their attitudes toward certain inspectors. That said, please keep in mind that things are not crazy everywhere!!

 

[lle]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

I agree with tonyi on page one of this discussion. It seems the whole debate has become an issue of who's right and who's wrong. Who wins?

As an electrician, for the consideration of my fellow electrician who might come in behind me into this house, I would not only mark the panel, I would also put a marker (with an explaination) on the conducter that's under the breaker not to change breaker size.

As an inspector, I would ask a fellow electrician to do this for the guy who might come in behind him, his fellow electrician.

Cause somewhere down the road, if something happens, someone will have to bear the liability.

 

[pierre]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

One way to battle an 'over zealous' inspector is to know the code. For the 16 years I was a contractor, I carried the code book on every job. Within a year or so I did not have any changes due to a 'special' safety inspection for future UNQUALIFIED installers. Such as one inspector telling me I needed to change all of my staples for NM cable because they were all metal

How many guys here actually spend any time at seminars, classes, and monthly meeting for the IAEI or contractor meetings?

Pierre

 

[tonyi]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

Originally posted by lle:
...for the consideration of my fellow electrician who might come in behind me into this house...

Many times I've done the notation/warning thing on old work too when in the course of sorting out a mess, I find #14 mixed in downstream somewhere with a 20A breaker and it was OK to downgrade that branch to a 15A breaker. In older places you really can't trust anything... I write a lot of little "implementation notes" on j-box covers in old work situations.

If the customer is happy and think a quality job was done, there's a fair chance the next guy called for any mods may be you - then the notes are doing yourself a favor

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

I have to deal with an over zealous inspector every day,Jim knows who i am talking about.But when you have an equal knowledge of the NEC as he does it makes life easier.Recently he wanted to see the uffer on final and wanted us to dig up finished lawns,landscaping etc. I held firm no way
it was signed off on rough and if he wanted to see it on final he could dig it up and get the backcharge from the landscaper.The NEC is a minimal and if we go over that well thats our thing to do.I have used 10/2 for many HR`s on large homes.but I tag them 20 or 15 amp circuit.Mr.DIY will do as they want anyway so to say that anyone can upsize the OCPD is a futile argument.I remeber apartment service in NYC where I would find pennies behind the glass fuse during the summer so they could use A/C`s on a #14 HR 150 ft or more.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Scott,while your 100% correct to do just that ,you might want to rethink it.The fastest way to cause tougher inspections is to call him down that way.This is not about passing just 1 job but thousands in future.Showing him where and why it is not only ok but a good idea might do far more good.I sometimes disagree with there call and calmly try to work it out with code book.

Jim it seems as though you are backwards in your thinking. It is not up to me to show him where and why, that is his responsibility. If he can do that fine if not there will be no changes and I'll consider the job passed.

 

[Guest]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

After the inspector is politely asked to leave and the job considered to be passed do we sign our own final and CoO?

I know we can run an inspector off the job if there is no permit, but once the permit is pulled how do we final it after we politely run the inspector off with a 2x4?

I've heard of these cases. I'm wondering how they fruit.

[ May 22, 2004, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

So just how do we get our C O and power turned on?
Just tell the power company that the inspector was out and didn't pass it but since i consider it to be passed turn it on anyways.Not sure how that works where your at but in Tampa Fl i would suggest you go buy a generator and lots of batteries. because you will not get power that way.
True the inspector will need to write a red tag and if he does not include the article # then ask him to please do so.Going over his head would solve this problem of #10 wire.Keep in mind that he will take this personally and might retaliate on next jobs.Almost any job has a few flaws and he will take his time on your next job to find them all.
The idea is to try and get allong with him or her.In this situation i see no gray print.There is no violation and i would show him where it is ok.Seems that a 5 or 10 minute conversation would resolve it and problem be over.
As to what Allen said, any of us that have ran service calls have seen the PENNY and or a 30 amp fuse and even wrong breakers.Nothing short of a fire will educate some homeowners not to do jobs they are not qualified to do.I personally have seen many fire damaged homes in Tampa because of over size fuses and breakers.
The sad part is some kid might die from this.Our duty as an electrician ends with installing a safe system.If your careing enough please take the time to tag that wire.If thet still over fuse then they either can't read or just don't care.

 

[doyle]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

Inspectors who inspect the future [as in this case]are diffcult to deal with. While you hate to fight them over trival things this type can be very expensive to deal with over time.

 

[cs409]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

inspectors should have 10yrs experience as an electrician, with at least 5 yrs in commercial/industrial . and they also need to have experience in residential as well...

hope this inspector doesnt go on some conduit job where the wire size was up sized due to VD and or derating etc..........talk about site sup. at a walmart or target project or big orange/big blue etc store being upppppppp set

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

Originally posted by cs409:
inspectors should have 10yrs experience as an electrician, with at least 5 yrs in commercial/industrial . and they also need to have experience in residential as well...

Why is that? I don't.

 

[sandsnow]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

Originally posted by doyle:
Inspectors who inspect the future [as in this case]are diffcult to deal with. While you hate to fight them over trival things this type can be very expensive to deal with over time.

While I agree that you can't say what if to every little thing, there are valid concerns sometimes.
We have a lot of empty buildings constructed for future TI. There is usually a sawcutting of the slab involved at one point in the buildings life. We require conduits to be installed a minimum of 3 inches below the bottom of the slab where as the code requires zero clearance. I have seen too many times in older buildings where conduits and conductors have been damaged from sawcutting because they were installed per code with zero clearance.


BTW, a lot of code requirements are about the future. Nailplates over romex would be one. The requirement of romex to be held in the center of the stud would be another.

 

[iwire]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

Larry do you have a code amendment that you can cite for this 3" below grade that you require.

If not you can only ask for it you can not demand it.

 

[volt101]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

A fellow inspector once told me "To Inspect, not Expect."

 

[Guest]

Re: Inspector's responsibility

My friend cuts concrete. He makes the customer spot the cuts. Then they sign a waiver/release that he's not responsible for damage. So far he's cross-cut the main power feeds for a sewage treatment plant; radiant heating lines; 2nd floor major shopping mall water lines (resulting in major water damage to tenants below); etc.

Every commercial slab will be cut. It makes sense to me to pass local ordinances to maintain specified clearances-- when possible.

On small jobs I choose to nail-plate all NM in wood studs. It's cheap insurance for me and my client. If I'm doing some copper plumbing (or if I see where the sub missed a couple) I'll nailplate that too even if not required. If it's too much work I'll do a "suggest" to the client and let the client decide if it's worth it.