Gas pipe bonding

[brother]

I know this question has been asked many times before, but where in the 2002 code can i find where they are talkiing about panel bonding to the gas pipe for residential dwellings. I know in my area that the gas company doesnt like it but i also know that the code requires it just have a brain spasm and cant find it.

 

[dnbob]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

Brother, 250.104 B requires the gas piping to be bonded, but the equipment grounding conductor in the appliance cord is permitted to bond the gas piping. Te grounding conductor size is based on table 250.122.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

Originally posted by dnbob:
but the equipment grounding conductor in the appliance cord is permitted to bond the gas piping.

bob,
I would love to agree with you on this, but our inspectors insist that we size the gas pipe bond to the largest branch circut breaker in the loadcenter.
And I appologize but I do not have my CODE book here as I left it in my truck after Continuing education course.

 

[sbe]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

250.52(B)(1) States metal underground gas piping systems shall not be used as grounding electrodes. However, 250.104(B) says metal gas piping should be bonded. There is a difference. Also please note that our local utility (LIPA) does not approve of bonding the gas piping. You are correct in that the appliance the gas pipe supplies would internally bond the gas pipe through the gas valve & controls. Check with your local utility and/or AHJ.

[ April 17, 2004, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: sbe ]

 

[roger]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

sbe,

Also please note that our local utility (LIPA) does not approve of bonding the gas piping.

so you still bond per the NEC requirement right?

The utility should have no say in what is required on the load side of the service.

We leave their jurisdiction and enter into our world here.

The NEC does not care (and rightfully so) what your utility thinks.

Roger

[ April 17, 2004, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[sbe]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

Roger [/QB][/QUOTE]

Roger, I do not bond the gas pipe to the service directly, however I do use the EGC associated with the branch circuit to ground (bond) the gas utilization appliance.

The utility's rules (NESC)are usually more stringent than the NEC and those requirements take precendence to the NEC. The line of demarcation for the utility stops at the first point of disconnect.

The utility does have say on the nature of the loads that they will be supplying since those loads can & do affect their distribution system.

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

Sorry Bob but I have to go with luke on this one,as a standard our inspectors say the same thing has to be sized to the largest grounding conduter that can be installed in the load center either on inspection or what might be able to be installed at a later date.So we have to go with the largest code wise that can be installed even after our final.

 

[pierre]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

250.104(B) OTHER METAL PIPING

... The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that may energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means.

this is next to the last sentence and is where the requirement is provided. If there are no local codes that change this, than the inspector cannot make it up.
Remember this is bonding, not grounding.

Take a look at 250.4(A)&(B), paying particular attention to the bold print tittles of each subsection.

Pierre

 

[hurk27]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

250.104(B) The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that may energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

Is the last sentence of 250.4(B) saying that we have to continue our EGC out of the connection box on the appliance to the gas pipe?
Or are they talking about when you don't have any gas appliance's that don't use any electrical connection?

 

[charlie]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

The bonding is done with the circuit that feeds the gas appliance. The bonding is done when the appliance is grounded and nothing else needs to be done . . . period. This is from an official interpretation from NFPA 54. This is also the intent of CMP-5.

 

[pierre]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

I wrote 250.4(A)&(B), I meant to write 250.4(A)(1)&(2)

(1)Grounding
(2)Bonding

Pierre

 

[iwire]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

It is too bad NJ does not believe that.

Read luke warmwaters post and I have read other posts from NJ inspectors that they require the gas piping to be bonded even if not in use.

Just in case someone adds an appliance. :roll:

What gas appliance that is likely to energize the gas piping would not have a grounding conductor?

 

[iwire]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

Originally posted by sbe:
The utility's rules (NESC)are usually more stringent than the NEC and those requirements take precendence to the NEC.

Only on their side of the service point and in the Meter itself.

If we say the line is at the first disconnect I could use NESC rules for sizing my service entrance conductors.

 

[sbe]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

SBE QUOTE:
"Also please note that our local utility (LIPA) does not approve of bonding the gas piping."

This should have read that the underground gas pipe should not be used as a grounding electrode.

Sorry for the confusion.

[ April 18, 2004, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: sbe ]

 

[roger]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

sbe,

The line of demarcation for the utility stops at the first point of disconnect.

you are correct with that statement and this definately takes the utility and the NESC out of our installation.

The utility does have say on the nature of the loads that they will be supplying since those loads can & do affect their distribution system.

You are correct here also, but what is being served has nothing to do with the wiring methods or applicable codes on our side of the service equipment.

The utility's rules (NESC)are usually more stringent than the NEC and those requirements take precendence to the NEC.

I don't agree, this is comparing apples to oranges.

Roger

 

[dnbob]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

To everyone that disagrees with my statement, I completely agree, this is a code minimum. I lived in Phoenix for ten years and we also sized our bonds per 250.66. In MN, we do not.

 

[sbe]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

Hi Roger,

We don't make the rules, we just play the game. :roll:

 

[roger]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

sbe, what can we call you? (besides sbe) I'd like to say Hi back.

Roger

 

[sbe]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

Howard Weitzman from Long Island NY will do.

[ April 18, 2004, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: sbe ]

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: Gas pipe bonding

Would you rather be howard or long island ?