california 3-way

[zatzot]

Can anyone help me,
I am trying to remember how to draw a
california 3-way.
Everyone at work says it cant be done but I remember it.
please email it to me if you know how to
zatzot@yahoo.com
thanks

 

[bennie]

Re: california 3-way

There are three ways to wire a three way . Two are approved one is not. The one not approved, switches the neutral conductor.

I imagine the California 3/way is the switching neutral variety.

I can't post a drawing, but Ed can. Maybe he will respond to this issue.

 

[charlie b]

Re: california 3-way

Is anyone other than myself contemplating an attempt at humor, perhaps something about the phrase ?california 3-way? and the notions of politics or social behavior? Should I? Nah. I?ll leave it alone.

 

[gregoryelectricinc]

Re: california 3-way

Ya Charlie, I was contemplating a few "off-color" remarks but it's better left alone. A "california" 3-way is where you have a gang (2 or more) of 3-ways at each entrance to the room, for example, and you power them @ one box, pull a 3-conductor cable from 1st box to 2nd for the first 3-way(carrying the nuetral on the white cond). You then pull a 2-conductor cable for the remaining 3-ways (travellers only). All switch legs come from the 2nd switch box. All the nuet's from the switch legs tie into the white cond from the 1st 3-way. This practice is absolutely, without a doubt, PROHIBITED in our company. I don't know if there is a code section that prohibits it but I certainly do.

 

[karl riley]

Re: california 3-way

In the interests of simplicity, the following statement prevents incorrect 3-way wiring:

Wire it so that at any point on your traveler or switch leg or feed, equal and opposite currents are present.

Or, more simply: At any point on the 3-way circuit, equal and opposite currents must be present.

Karl

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: california 3-way

Hook a hot and a neutral to the terminals where the travelers are normally connected at both 3 ways. Run from one common terminal to one wire at the fixture. Run the other fixture wire to the common on the second 3 way. This circuit siwtches the grounded conductor and also make the lamp socket screw shell hot, both are code violations.

 

[gregoryelectricinc]

Re: california 3-way

Wow Don, I never would have thought of that method. I t would definitley function but the thoughts of what might happen are just plain scary.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: california 3-way

Greg,
That was a very common circuit used in many areas in the early 1900's. I have been told that the circuit was prohibited starting with the 1923 code, but was used after that. When in high school I worked at a local hardware store and whenever we sold a 3-way switch for replacement purposes, we always suggested that they buy fuses too. Often the ones who didn't buy fuses would be back later to get some.
I did a replacement service on a house that had some of these 3 way circuits. After we turned on the power and started checking things out, one of the lights in a hallway that was on a 3 way got extremely bright for a very short time when the switch was first turned on. The 3-way was wired like my earlier post with one exception. The traveler terminals were connected to two different circuits and when we reconnected them the two circuits were no longer on the same hot in the panel placing 240 across the bulb.
Don

[ September 19, 2003, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: don_resqcapt19 ]

 

[jro]

Re: california 3-way

I belive a California 3-way was given that name because it was first introduced in a residential installation in Utah.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: california 3-way

The master I apprenticed under taught me to pay close attention to the main stair switching in a two story dwelling, especially if the original service was 120 Volt. Like as not, that original service had two circuits, one carrying the upstairs and one the downstairs.

But my master called this luminaire polarity switching knob and tube threeway a bad design.

He called the following a California threeway:

I show it between the house and garage, but it could be anywhere.

 

[noxx]

Re: california 3-way

Pointof interest, over time the term "california 3 way" has come to mean, at least in california, what we would normally call "cold-switching".

What Zat was looking for I think, and what Don described used to be called a "California" or "Coast" "west coast" 3 way. Most of the older folks who still remember then refer to it as a "Coast" 3-way switch.

The first time I ran into one of these I spent a long morning trying to figure out just what in the hell was going on, as it NEVER occured to me that anyone would wire it up like it was. The most dangerous part about it is that in one of the "off" positions, both the shell and the button of the socket remain hot, without potential to ground, until Joe Homeowner gets in there to change a bulb.

Ow, ow, ow.

 

[Guest]

Re: california 3-way

OK, call me stupid but why does "the shell stay hot"? I don't see it. When you want light the shell is hot. When you want dark the shell is cold. Isn't that the way all lighting switch circuits work? I can clearly see it's unconventional, but if the shell stays hot how does the light go off? The drawing above does not show a switched neutral. It shows a switched hot. Or, maybe the drawing is wrong-- or needs to be more clearly labeled? My read is that the shell is hot when on, cold when off.

OK, maybe your definition of a shell does not fit my nomenclature. Define shell.

Thanks!

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: california 3-way

Wayne,
The drawing above is not the same circuit as the one I know of. In the one that I described, the two off conditions are, 1) both the center contact and the screw shell hot, or 2) both the center contact and the screw shell connected to the grounded conductor. The two on conditions are 1) the center conductor connected to the hot and the screw shell connected to the grounded conductor, or 2) the center contact connected to the grounded conductor and the screw shell connected to the hot.
Don

 

[roger]

Re: california 3-way

Zatzot, to see how to draw it (in this case a Chicago three way) go here

Ronald is a member here and has terrific graphics, if he sees this thread he may choose to post this picture here.

awwt, you will find your answer in 410.23

Roger

 

[ryan_618]

Re: california 3-way

Originally posted by jro:
I belive a California 3-way was given that name because it was first introduced in a residential installation in Utah.

Hey be nice to us Utah folk

 

[russellroberts]

Re: california 3-way

We use several 3-way combinations. I say we but it's usually I who does them.

#1 power pulled into light,12-2 to switch-3-wire to other switch.white wire reidentified.
#2 Power to first switch.3 wire to 2nd switch,neutral carried through,switchleg up to light from 2nd switch.
#3 power to 1st sw. 3wire to 2nd switch,white wire reidentified,switchleg up from 1st switch.
What we call a "dead end 3-way".

#4 Power into light box,3wire to each switch.

#5 If a 4w is needed, sometimes if it's easier,and you have a feed where the 4-way is,we feed it there and take the switchleg up from there as well.

Never been red tagged for any of these methods as long as the white wire is redidentified.

I don't have a set method to do 3ws,usually do them the easiest way that fits the situation.

This is all residential of course.

Russell

 

[Guest]

Re: california 3-way

Originally posted by roger:
<snip>awwt, you will find your answer in 410.23 Roger

Noxx said the shell is hot in the drawing. Using noxx's nomenclature for shell was the basis for my question. I don't see where the shell is hot in the drawing, so I am assuming that noxx has a different nomenclature for "shell" than I do.

Noxx: What do you mean when per the drawing you say the shell is hot?

Thanks!

[ September 22, 2003, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: california 3-way

This is the diagram bennie sent me to post for him it is legal since it doesn't alternate the polarity of the light socket.

I'm not sure if Bennie called this the travelling bos or bus switch? Which was it Bennie?

The so called Chicago switch alternates the polarity of the light socket and makes the shell of the socket hot to ground every other time it is switch from one switch to the other.

Here is Bennies switch

Ronald

[ September 22, 2003, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: ronaldrc ]

 

[bennie]

Re: california 3-way

Ronald: Glad to see you on the board again. You may want to correct the name to travelling bus 3/way. My drawing was not clearly printed.

This is what I always thought to be a "Coast 3/way". A 4/way cannot be used with this procedure.

A standard 3/way is the only arrangement compatible with a 4/way.

The switching neutral 3/way, is the only one that is not approved.

 

[bennie]

Re: california 3-way

The advantage of the 3/way in Ronalds drawing, is that 4 wires are required between switch locations rather than 5 if a standard 3/way.

This switching method can be done with 3 wires if the barb wire fence is used for the neutral