AFCI confusion

[rhombus65]

AFCI's are kind of new to me. I just have not needed to use them very much.

I am wiring a new house right now and I want to try to get a good understanding on how the requirements for AFCI's are interpreted.

Here is how I read the code.

All 125 v 15 and 20 amp outlets in the bedroom. To me this would not include the switch for nor the light in a closet that serves the bedroom. The switch is not an outlet and the closet light is not in the bedroom.

Smoke detectors are required to AFCI'd because they are in the bedroom and are considered an outlet.

If there is a bathroom that serves only that bedroom there is no requirement for AFCI protection as it is a separate room just like the closet.

Any and all comments/criticism is welcome.

 

[jibber]

Re: AFCI confusion

Rhombus, Correct interpretation! You can put the lighting and the exterior GFI also on the same circuit. I heard rumors that the AFCI's will be taken off the AFCI circuits in the 2005 code.

 

[charlie]

Re: AFCI confusion

I think your rumor is incorrect. I have not looked it up but I believe the AFCI is here to stay.

As far as the switch is concerned, the circuit that feeds the bedroom outlets is to be protected with an AFCI. How would you install a switch to control a lighting or receptacle outlet without protecting that switch?

 

[charlie b]

Re: AFCI confusion

Originally posted by rhombus65: To me this would not include the switch for nor the light in a closet that serves the bedroom. The switch is not an outlet and the closet light is not in the bedroom.

The ?Other Charlie? is right about it being the circuit that requires the AFCI protection. What you about the switch and the closet light is also correct. So if you provide power to the closet light from a different circuit than the one(s) that feed bedroom outlets, then neither the switch nor the closet light would require AFCI. Have we collectively answered your question?

 

[tom baker]

Re: AFCI confusion

Rhombus "The switch is not an outlet and the closet light is not in the bedroom". A switch is installed at an outlet. However I would agree that the closet is not in the bedroom, otherwise it would not be called a closet. Please see the article 100 definition of outlet.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: AFCI confusion

Hi Tom. I don't think that a switch is an outlet because it doesn't take current. If the switch had a pilot light I would call it an outlet, or perhaps an occupancy sensor.

 

[jibber]

Re: AFCI confusion

Charlie and Rhombus .... Sorry, what I meant to say is that the rumor was that the smoke detector circuit would not be required to be on the AFCI circuit.

 

[charlie]

Re: AFCI confusion

I don't think that is true either. Again, I am shooting from the lip so take it with a grain of salt.

BTW, the Indiana Electrical Code states, "In Section 210.12(B), Dwelling unit bedrooms, delete ?outlets? and insert ?receptacle outlets?." Therefore, only receptacle outlets are required to be covered in Indiana.

 

[rhombus65]

Re: AFCI confusion

Thanks all for your replies.

jibber: Thank you for your input and your later clarrification.

charlie b: I like anyone that agrees with me. Thanks!

tom baker: With all do respect and respect is deserved, I know you are an instructor and all, but it is you who should be reading article 100. I'm all set there. Thanks anyway.

 

[dave81]

Re: AFCI confusion

I think the switch thing is still a little fuzzy to me doesn't the switch supply current to utilization equipment, a (light).

 

[iwire]

Re: AFCI confusion

Originally posted by rhombus65:
tom baker: With all do respect and respect is deserved, I know you are an instructor and all, but it is you who should be reading article 100. I'm all set there. Thanks anyway.

OK Master & Journeyman Electrician, A+ Cert, MCP W2K :roll:

[ March 29, 2004, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[tom baker]

Re: AFCI confusion

Rhombus-do you have the Mike Holt 2002 NEC Illustrated Changes text? Look at fig 210-4, it shows the switch "outlets" being protected in a dwelling unit bedroom by an AFCI.

 

[rhombus65]

Re: AFCI confusion

Tom:

If the drawing shows what you say than the code needs to change the wording to meet it's intent.

[ March 30, 2004, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: rhombus65 ]

 

[rhombus65]

Re: AFCI confusion

iwire:

Thanks for the laugh. That's a good one.

To all: A switch is not an outlet!!

 

[Ed MacLaren]

Re: AFCI confusion

rhombus65,

Years ago, we used to price residential jobs by the outlet.
We didn't install the switches for free.

Ed

 

[charlie]

Re: AFCI confusion

OK guys, lets look at the definition. "Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment."

A switch is not an outlet. However, Ed is correct . . . sorta. We all use slang and sometimes loose touch with the real definitions. I suspect you would all know what I meant if I said, "I have been an electrician for two years and pull rope for a living." Of course, I would use just Type NM cable or "romex".

I have to agree that a switch is a slang outlet but that statement will not stand up to the Code.

 

[charlie b]

Re: AFCI confusion

Charlie has it right, and it allows me to echo a common theme of mine. What we have here is ?language? getting in the way of ?communication.? But this example has a twist, for there are THREE languages being used here, not just the usual two:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Professional Language: An outlet is what the NEC says it is, and a switch does not meet the definition.
  
  Conversational Language: An outlet is a box (e.g., 2x4, 4x4, or other size) into which you put stuff to which the end user will have access, and that can be used as the basis for pricing a job.
  
  Homeowner?s Language: An outlet is the two-slotted plastic thing (with or without a third round slot) into which I can plug my vacuum cleaner. Nothing else is an outlet, not even the larger version into which the dryer is plugged.</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When we speak, we need to be aware of the language that the listener is perceiving, particularly if the listener is the homeowner. For example, if you price a one-room remodel job ?per outlet,? and bill the homeowner for ten outlets, and if the homeowner can only count three receptacle outlets, they are going to think you have over-billed them.

 

[charlie b]

Re: AFCI confusion

Originally posted by dave81: I think the switch thing is still a little fuzzy to me doesn't the switch supply current to utilization equipment, a (light).

This is how I clarify the issue in my own mind: The key word in the definition is the word ?taken.? A switch does not ?take? current, it merely passes it along or stops it from moving along. A piece of ?utilization equipment? that ?takes current? would have current entering on a hot leg and leaving on a cold leg, at which point the current now heads back to the source. As it passes through, current causes something to happen (light to turn on, heater to get hot, motor to go roundy-roundy, etc.). Power is used by the device, and the voltage on the downstream side is lower than that of the upstream side. None of these things happen in a switch.

Aside to Ryan_618: Under the interpretation above, I would favor the position, contrary to the one you have posted, that a lighted switch does not qualify as an outlet. The reason is that the current does not leave the light within the switch and head back to the source. Of course, I am an engineer and you are an inspector, so I would lose the argument.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: AFCI confusion

Charlie B.,

This is an interesting distinction, to me:

The current does not leave the light within the switch and head back to the source.

The light is a load. The work is the light produced that leaves the switch, arguably providing information to observers.

Granted that today's lights in switches tend to be very tiny loads by comparison to the 7? Watt incandescent lamps of yore, but they are still loads.

Carrying the tiny load idea further: The switch itself will have a voltage drop, as will the terminations to the switch, and the wire itself. The resistance present will produce a small amount of heat which, again, leaves the "outlet" location. A solid state dimmer switch, typically, has a 0.7 Volt drop that is inherent to the silicon and which is a source of heat that must be carried away from the silicon lest it destroy itself.

Ryan, if an indicator light in a switch makes the switch an outlet (Article 100), then what's your take on the solid state dimmer switch?

I had a client, awhile back, that built a detached Victorian garage complete with cupola at the peak of the roof. My client had me install a light inside the cupola that he could control by the dimmer by the window inside the bedroom of his house. (He was an eccentric client ).

 

[ryan_618]

Re: AFCI confusion

This really is a difficult subject, isn't it?

I think one distintction that could definitley be made is whether or not the point on the premises wiring system that we are discussing requires a neutral. If it does, I would think that I would have to call it an outlet. As far as a dimmer switch goes, thats kind of a tricky one. In all honesty, I think the only way to tell, in my opinion, would be to close the circuit by turning the switch on and determining whether or not the amperage coming into the switch mirrors the amperage leaving the switch. If there is a difference, then current is being taken and, therefore, you have an outlet.

I'm not too up to speed on the intricate workings of a solid-state dimmer, so I'm probably not the best person to answer the question.