Who wants to take guess?

[kalanjeya]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

When someone ask some practical doubt , if we really able to answer we have to answer otherwise see how others are discussing here.As a design man i could answer somthing,but as a contractor (secondsman) i could not see any practical things here.very shame!

Jeyakumar

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

Jeyakumar,

I found BruceH's opening post's question to be interesting. "Who wants to take a guess?" The guessing was instructive.

BruceH then told us what he found when he did the repair. The husband did a bad test, got garbage results, and interpreted those results as if they meant something.

The "human component" in the "practical equation" is the random variable that, in many cases, must be entered into the equation for it to be complete.

While this is not a strict engineering calculation, it is a real world engineering solution.

 

[iwire]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
The "human component" in the "practical equation" is the random variable that, in many cases, must be entered into the equation for it to be complete.

I spent 5 years as a maintenance mechanic and I quickly learned that you had to take the machine operators description of the problem with the 'doubt-o-meter' on full.

Many times the 'story' would be changed to hide the fact they where using the equipment incorrectly.

 

[kalanjeya]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

I really become mad here ! What is the subject?


I'm going on a residential call tomorrow and the problem is that the hallway light will not shut off. The man claims to have no power at either 3 way switch. Any guesses as to what the problem is?

BruceH Where r you ?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

Originally posted by iwire:
Many times the 'story' would be changed to hide the fact they where using the equipment incorrectly.

Yup.

And the "management oversight", if present, would ask the electrician what he found, and, as the wife of the husband at BruceH's troubleshoot, would discover another learning deficiency.

Now, if only we could correct the learning deficiency as easily as replacing the shorted 3way switch.

I submit that sharing the info (in BruceH's case, the knowledge of the faulty voltmeter test procedure) helps to apply limits to the possible excursions of the "human variable" (as moderated by the wife) into extreme ranges.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

Jeyakumar,

No need to get mad, in my opinion.

I do a lot of residential troubleshooting.

Clients will describe how a 3way set up will not work in wildly varied ways. What I discover when I repair the problem is, many times, entertainingly different than what was described.

Originally posted by kalanjeya I really become mad here ! What is the subject?

The subject was guessing what the wiring correction was.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

Originally posted by kalanjeya: I really become mad here !

How you feel is yours to choose. Nobody can make you mad; you become mad because you choose to become mad.

You don't get to tell the other 26,000+ members of this Forum what to say or how to say it. This Forum is free to use, and nobody gets paid to participate. If a discussion turns unprofessional and the tone turns to rudeness or offensive, the Moderators will intervene. But I am not going to intervene just because someone interjects a bit of humor or takes the discussion off to a new direction. Anyone, including the person who started the thread, can bring the discussion back to the original topic, simply by posting a question or comment that addresses the original topic.

Forgive me if you are not familiar with the following idiomatic expression, or if it does not make sense at first, but it is the best way I can say what I want to say to you: Please "lighten up."

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

Originally posted by iwire:
...I quickly learned that you had to take the machine operators description of the problem with the 'doubt-o-meter' on full.

If I am correct, then English is a second language for you. If I am not correct, I apologize in advance. I'd like to know where you're from and what you do.

I think you didn't see where Bruce already told us what he found.

Many years ago it was not common to include an Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) in circuits in houses. In the old house Bruce went to work at, there were none of these EGC's.

The EGC's protect people from shock by connecting all the exposed metal connected to the circuit to the "grounded" side of the source of power, so that circuit breakers will open before someone gets shocked.

When the owner tested to find power at the switches, he had no 'ground' to complete a circuit with his tester. Every switch or box that he touched the probes of his tester to, were either 'hot' or isolated from ground. The switches were hot, and the boxes were isolated from everything. So his meter never showed any voltage, despite the fact that the switches were actually hot.

The switches were shorted closed, so no matter which way he flipped the switches, power could still reach the switch, so the light stayed on.

I hope this helps.

[ January 05, 2006, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Hey, gimme back my doubt-o-meter!

You left it laying around gathering dust so I picked it up.

Finders keepers.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

So BruceH why have you abandoned us?

 

[BruceH]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

What was the topic again?? Ungrounded house, Diy'er diagnosis, shorted 3 way switch causing lights to remain on, = Happy Homeowner gladly paying service charge! Wife happy husband is still kickin

 

[kalanjeya]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

Finally i cought the answer,thanks for all.

Jeyakumar

 

[hurk27]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

I find it odd that both 3-ways shorted at the same time?
This is because of how a 3-way works.
A 3-way is a single pole double throw switch, it has a movable contact (common) that is moved from one traveler to the other.
Because of this it can only short to one or the other traveler but not both, this should leave the other 3-way still operable unless it too has shorted or should I say welded contacts.
But then I see where this circuit was fed from 30 amp fuse/breaker

 

[kalanjeya]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

hurk27 If you are right ,if the fault would have occurred between phase & neutral(because travel conductor would connect the switch directly, not through the light) ,there is no chance of light glowing always , it would trip the incomer at the load center.

Jeyakumar

 

[charlie b]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

Originally posted by georgestolz: Hey, gimme back my doubt-o-meter!

Didn't I just see one of those posted for sale on MeBay.com?

 

[BruceH]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

Originally posted by kalanjeya:
hurk27 If you are right ,if the fault would have occurred between phase & neutral(because travel conductor would connect the switch directly, not through the light) ,there is no chance of light glowing always , it would trip the incomer at the load center.

Jeyakumar

Jeyakumar, are you familar with 3 way switch wiring at all? Do you understand that there are numerous ways to wire a 3 way set-up? Do you realize that on old houses they accomplished this many times with the "whatever works" method? Do you realize that many, many times there is not a grounded conductor (a.k.a neutral) pulled into switch boxes? Have you spent any time troubleshooting electrical problems on older homes? Just curious.

 

[BruceH]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

Originally posted by hurk27:
I find it odd that both 3-ways shorted at the same time?
This is because of how a 3-way works.
A 3-way is a single pole double throw switch, it has a movable contact (common) that is moved from one traveler to the other.
Because of this it can only short to one or the other traveler but not both, this should leave the other 3-way still operable unless it too has shorted or should I say welded contacts.
But then I see where this circuit was fed from 30 amp fuse/breaker

No short at light and the 30amp feed was for unrelated circuitry which was corrected while I was there for the service call. The ancient 3 way was indeed shorted, there was continuity between the common and both travelers, in both switch positions. Only one switch was shorted, not both.

[ January 06, 2006, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: BruceH ]

 

[kalanjeya]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

Originally posted by BruceH:

Originally posted by kalanjeya:
hurk27 If you are right ,if the fault would have occurred between phase & neutral(because travel conductor would connect the switch directly, not through the light) ,there is no chance of light glowing always , it would trip the incomer at the load center.

Jeyakumar

Jeyakumar, are you familar with 3 way switch wiring at all? Do you understand that there are numerous ways to wire a 3 way set-up? Do you realize that on old houses they accomplished this many times with the "whatever works" method? Do you realize that many, many times there is not a grounded conductor (a.k.a neutral) pulled into switch boxes? Have you spent any time troubleshooting electrical problems on older homes? Just curious.

 

[kalanjeya]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

Originally posted by kalanjeya:

Originally posted by BruceH:

Originally posted by kalanjeya:
hurk27 If you are right ,if the fault would have occurred between phase & neutral(because travel conductor would connect the switch directly, not through the light) ,there is no chance of light glowing always , it would trip the incomer at the load center.

Jeyakumar

Jeyakumar, are you familar with 3 way switch wiring at all? Do you understand that there are numerous ways to wire a 3 way set-up? Do you realize that on old houses they accomplished this many times with the "whatever works" method? Do you realize that many, many times there is not a grounded conductor (a.k.a neutral) pulled into switch boxes? Have you spent any time troubleshooting electrical problems on older homes? Just curious.

Dear bruceH

Practiclly , Any switch box controlling lights does not required a neutral /grounded conductor .

Jeyakumar

 

[mprairie]

Re: Who wants to take guess?

You left out the part where the bulb in the light fixture over the stove fills with water and then explodes!