Science of Arc Flash & Engineering

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The 100A GE has

thermal trip = inverse time curve
magnetic trip = instantaneous trip

The Arc Flash folks were referring to:

thermal trip = inverse time curve
magnetic trip = inverse time curve

I was asking what kind of breakers have magnetic strip with inverse time curve?



How many percentage of homes or office installations do you use fuses?
Magnetic trip is however fast it can mechanically operate once trip threshold has been reached there is no inverse time curve that I know of.

Fuses are somewhat limited to industrial applications, but can be used sometimes even on other applications to help supplement interrupting rating issues via series ratings, or to lower incident energy level for worker safety.
 

mbrooke

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United States
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Technician
When one discusses with arc flash folks. They always mentioned about breakers having inverse time curves. But for normal breakers with magnetic instantaneous trip function (the typical bi-metal/ magnetic strip mechanism). They don't have inverse time curves at all, isn't it?


They do below the instantaneous values.

The following is example of their description "If for instance we cut the short circuit current in half, the obvious assumption is that arc flash should be cut in half (Arc power cut in half).



Yes- but there is a catch. Cutting the short circuit current in half may cause the short circuit current to drop below the instantaneous pickup of the breaker.

This is close to accurate as far as the arc thermal power goes. BUT the breaker timing is also increased but since breakers operate on an inverse time curve most of the time, the increase in opening time more than doubles. So the resulting incident energy often actually goes up rather than down." If the normal breakers are not really inverse time curves. Do you have sample of breakers with inverse time curves features? Are they mechanical or electronic? Perhaps the minimum ampacity is more than 200A?


Check out the time current curves of various breakers. Larger ones can be adjusted in both the instantaneous pickup, short time and long time delay regions.

How fast are breakers with inverse time curves compared to the typical instantaneous tripping magnetic strip based breakers?


Typical magnetic breakers also have inverse (heating) delays below the magnetic pickup, larger breakers are the same.

Incident energy goes way up when tripping on the inverse.

Also you said 10kA Interrupting Current is enough. But using the infinite bus assumption.
75,000/240v/0.02 = 15,625A

15K is more than 10K. How can 10K be enough?



Simple, the distance between the pole transformer and service reduces the fault current.


https://www.alabamapower.com/conten...rs/A-E-Fault-Currents-Tables-FINAL-8-2003.pdf
 

tersh

Senior Member
Location
new york
Magnetic trip is however fast it can mechanically operate once trip threshold has been reached there is no inverse time curve that I know of.

Fuses are somewhat limited to industrial applications, but can be used sometimes even on other applications to help supplement interrupting rating issues via series ratings, or to lower incident energy level for worker safety.

Magnetic trip is faster way for breaker to trip from short circuit. If there are only one kind of magnetic trip which is instantaneous trip. How come arc flashes resources kept mentioning about inverse time curve. The short circuit tripping doesn't involve the bi-metallic which takes time to trip. See for example:

https://www.ecmag.com/section/safety/one-size-does-not-fit-all

"If infinite bus is the worst-case maximum, can’t we just ignore cases that result in lower short-circuit current? If this was a short-circuit study, the answer could be yes—ignore the lower values. However, since this is for an arc flash study, a lower short-circuit current could result in greater incident energy, which could be the worst-case scenario. During an arc flash, a smaller short-circuit current may cause the upstream protective device to take longer to operate. Even though the current is reduced, a longer duration can lead to a greater overall incident energy and a greater hazard. "


In what way can a smaller short-circuit current cause the upstream protective device to take longer to operate? They related it to inverse time curve in the previous quote I gave.
 

mbrooke

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United States
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Technician
Perhaps this may be of help:




http://www.export.legrand.com/files/fck/pdf-EN/EX29009.pdf








conceptual-panel-board.png
 

tersh

Senior Member
Location
new york
They do below the instantaneous values.




Yes- but there is a catch. Cutting the short circuit current in half may cause the short circuit current to drop below the instantaneous pickup of the breaker.



Check out the time current curves of various breakers. Larger ones can be adjusted in both the instantaneous pickup, short time and long time delay regions.




Typical magnetic breakers also have inverse (heating) delays below the magnetic pickup, larger breakers are the same.

Incident energy goes way up when tripping on the inverse.





Simple, the distance between the pole transformer and service reduces the fault current.


https://www.alabamapower.com/conten...rs/A-E-Fault-Currents-Tables-FINAL-8-2003.pdf

For a typical GE breakers with 10k interrupting current. Remember the 10k is only the maximum capacity of the short circuit. For a say 100A breaker. 1000A short circuit is enough to trip it.

Are you saying if the fault current is reduced to 800A. It can't cause the magnetic strip to trip, and it needs the bi-metal?

How long does it take for the bi-metal to heat and trip? I was thinking it was 5 seconds or more before. Can the bi-metal trip in 1 or 2 seconds? This was the reason the magnetic strip was needed. So it can trip faster than the bi-metal.
 

mbrooke

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Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
For a typical GE breakers with 10k interrupting current. Remember the 10k is only the maximum capacity of the short circuit. For a say 100A breaker. 1000A short circuit is enough to trip it.


For a typical 3 phase breaker- the one and two poles are rated 120 and 120/240 respectively. Interrupting goes down to 5ka when on the 208 volt high leg.

Are you saying if the fault current is reduced to 800A. It can't cause the magnetic strip to trip, and it needs the bi-metal?


Yes- it reverts to the bi-metal.


How long does it take for the bi-metal to heat and trip? I was thinking it was 5 seconds or more before. Can the bi-metal trip in 1 or 2 seconds? This was the reason the magnetic strip was needed. So it can trip faster than the bi-metal.

It can take 1-2 seconds if the current is in that region of the published and set trip curve.
 

tersh

Senior Member
Location
new york
For a typical 3 phase breaker- the one and two poles are rated 120 and 120/240 respectively. Interrupting goes down to 5ka when on the 208 volt high leg.




Yes- it reverts to the bi-metal.




It can take 1-2 seconds if the current is in that region of the published and set trip curve.


Thanks. It finally made sense. I spent an hour googling yesterday about magnetic strips that have inverse time curve and thought these are special breakers used in industrial plans etc. So the arc flash folks were referring to reverting to bi-metal strips when the short circuit goes below the instantaneous tripping current of the magnetic strip. Understood.

About the fuses. The problem with fuses are replacing them. Imagine the electrician opens up the main breaker, switches the lever off so the fuses are isolated and ready for replacement, and try to replace them, but being careless he contacts the fuse with the live wire above then short the two fuses accidentally. Then it can cause major arc flash.

I guess fuses are only important in industrial switch gears where the panels were constantly being examined and many equipment upgrades or modifications all the time.

For office building where the service panels breakers below the meters won't just get defective all of a sudden. And the only adjustments to them are only on and off. Then the best course of actions is getting the following $400 premium PPE suit with arc flash 12cal/cm2 protection. I guess this will do for office building only (to let electrician wears it.. they are mostly wearing undershirt or nude upper body with slippers only when working) :)

https://www.amazon.com/TCG2P-Ultral...TYC6WCJYD2YW&refRID=TK3NPD6YTYC6WCJYD2YW&th=1

CgKbQ5.jpg


Any last words (or tips) before I order an hour from now and get Jeff Bezos richer? Lol.
 

tersh

Senior Member
Location
new york
There is gear out there where the live parts are shielded and can not be shorted when the fuse is pulled or inserted.



/////////////////////////////////

If curious this to might be of help in that its very popular in selecting circuit protection- it has an LV section:

https://www.siemens.com/content/dam...c-power-distribution-technical-principles.pdf

In your experience. Would the 200A fused main box only trips if there is short in any of the line side of the breakers/disconnects below the meters or would it also trip from a short inside any of the the individual units/room with say 100A main breaker in the room panel?
 

mbrooke

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Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
In your experience. Would the 200A fused main box only trips if there is short in any of the line side of the breakers/disconnects below the meters or would it also trip from a short inside any of the the individual units/room with say 100A main breaker in the room panel?



It will trip for any fault on the load side of the fuse.


Whether both the main fuse and the feeder breakers trip for a fault after the feeder breaker is up to selective coordination- but I wouldn't worry all that much as faults outside of branch circuits are rare.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
In your experience. Would the 200A fused main box only trips if there is short in any of the line side of the breakers/disconnects below the meters or would it also trip from a short inside any of the the individual units/room with say 100A main breaker in the room panel?
Which ever reaches the trip point in it's respective trip curve is what will trip first, selective coordination efforts will help assure a branch breaker trips faster than an upstream feeder breaker, or fuse.

Sometimes if such coordination wasn't done, you will see both the branch breaker and the feeder breaker trip during a fault event, they both crossed the line of the trip curve during the fault event.
 

tersh

Senior Member
Location
new york
According to an arc flash veteran. PPE coveralls won't withstand entry of molten slags which could still reach your arms or chest after passing through the PPE. It's good I could still cancel the order of the Oberon PPE at amazon because I found out the volume weight was 52 lbs and shipping alone costed more than the cost of the item when the shipping forwarder would ship it from New York. He mentioned about chromated leather PPE used by welders to avoid molten slags reaching them. Does it mean a leather with tough metal skin? I couldn't find any results of "chromated leather PPE" at google. Any pictures? Can you think of any PPE that can withstand flying molten slags? Perhaps used by bomb squad? Or since the panel vertical opening is less than 1 foot. Then perhaps some kind of localized shield could be used just to turn on and off the breaker (not connecting any live wires which I won't allowed electricians to do anymore).

The arc flash veteran said (for reference):

"If you follow 70E as written, you will survive. It does not guarantee no injury, only to minimize injury to the face and chest area. You can survive with no legs or arms. But the chance of survival goes down quickly with severe burns to the face or chest area and that's what 70E is designed to target in terms of PPE. So let's talk about what the PPE is and what it does and what it doesn't do. First, it has an ATPV rating. This means that you will not receive more than a second degree burn in the chest area. That's what the ATPV rating represents. It is a thermal rating. You could achieve the exact same thing with a set of winter insulated and non-arc rated coveralls up until the point where the coveralls melt or ignite. The second key component is that the PPE is completely fire retardant. So for instance if a piece of slag (molten debris) hits the coveralls it will burn a hole right through them and burn the skin beneath. BUT if the coveralls were not fire retardant, they can melt or ignite from the piece of slag subjecting the entire body to fire and causing a much more severe burn including in the key face/chest area. So the PPE performs as required under any circumstance. Victims of arc flash will survive, but won't necessarily go injury free.


So it's not that the coveralls aren't performing as expected, just that there is a false belief that arc flash PPE is designed to eliminate injury when it face it is never intended to do so. And in your particular case based on the description of the injury...first and second degree burns to the hands and arms, arc flash PPE is not and will not prevent that. It might help but it is not going to prevent it.


As far as how to stop it entirely, that's an entirely different matter. I think if you look to industries that deal directly with thermal processes you will find your answer. Welders switch from simple FR overalls to heavy chromated leather PPE when they are welding in an overhead position where slag and molten metal drop down on them or where there is a danger of splash and flying slag. Iron and steel workers use aluminized fire suits when they are doing tasks such as clearing a tap hole in a ladle where the molten metal is under pressure and has a tendency to spray them while performing the task. I can give these two examples from personal experience with both situations.


Moreover going back to my original point....the problem here wasn't even the fact that an injury occurred. The injury could have been completely avoided. As a counter example I have a customer that had a 3000 A draw out type circuit breaker that fused itself to the bus due to some other (unknown) issues. So we needed to break the fingers of the draw out mechanism loose to remove the breaker and repair it. It is possible to reach under the breaker with rubber gloves and sleeves on with a screwdriver and pry the fingers loose. So if you have no idea what I'm talking about basically you would end up with your body wrapped around a 3000 A breaker forcing spring loaded clips loose with a screwdriver in an area that you can't even see. Danger is hardly the word for it...stupid is more like it. To make this worse the breaker was at a large relatively high security prison and killing power to this particular breaker also means killing power to the entire security system. Add to this the fact that it's a government agency so difficult to get something like this done. And we had to coordinate with the utility to cut power at the pole. All that being said, we did exactly that. And it all worked. And we got it all fixed. And everyone was happy with the result. And no chance of anyone eating an arc flash at all."
 

tersh

Senior Member
Location
new york
I finally understood what happened after an arc flash fellow told me it could have started from line to ground initially and not phase to phase.

Looking at the old photos taken in 2015. I found the smoking gun.

mcMPGw.jpg



The above photo was after the cardboard was removed and the scorched chassis painted. But there was a hole at the back of chassis where the breaker metal strip was attached to the chassis. You can see scorched marks in the metal strip holding the breakers. So what happened obviously was the short and arc flash was between the 208v high leg to the ground (because the chassis was grounded). Then when the area was enveloped with so much heat. There was a phase to phase arc or another arc from screw of third terminal to the second terminal explaining the screws scorched marks.

I don't want to focus how third live wire was shorted to the chassis. The trigger could be strands or carbon or whatever (in case the electrician would read this in future, you could have just shorted it with a strand since it was half an inch to the chassis metal strip). But the short (or whatever) triggered arc flash between phase to ground that created another minor phase to phase arc flash too.

The following picture showed the top of the breakers in closeup showing the damage extended to the chassis strip holding the breaker:

NNHMYi.jpg




The following observations or comments are in store:

1. Remember in our country, homes don't use ground and even panels inside commercial units have plastic supporting the neutral/ground bar so even the panel was not grounded. And in the main panel where the above occurred. It was the only panel grounded. Look what happened. It arc flashed between phase to ground. This may be why the government doesn't make grounding mandatory, because grounding it caused the accident in the case above.

2. I heard that in US 120/240v residential ac power, it's arc flash category 0. Meaning no arc flash risk. Does it mean when even if there was accidental contact between phase and chassis like the above. You don't have arc flash that sends molten snag to the arms or wall of chassis. Or does it also occur? If so, then why do you refer to your 120/240v as Arc Flash Category 0? If there is even 1.2cal/cm2 incident energy at the arms length. It's already Arc Flash Category 1. What do you think? This is the last thing I wanna know before I move on from all this. Thank you.
 
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tersh

Senior Member
Location
new york
It will trip for any fault on the load side of the fuse.


Whether both the main fuse and the feeder breakers trip for a fault after the feeder breaker is up to selective coordination- but I wouldn't worry all that much as faults outside of branch circuits are rare.

Mbrooke. I'd like to ask something with regards to NEC (where we copied the text but didn't understand everything). Here is the service entrance wires of the commercial building:

czCThs.jpg



The electrical plan and contractor put 300MCM wires at service entrannce but the POCO only used AWG 1 wires from their utility pole. Is this normal? Where is the table in NEC where the POCO can decrease the sizes of the conductors from their poles (to save money). It's open air so no problem with heat. But how about resistance of smaller wires and maximum short circuit current that can pass? I'm in process of computing the arc flash incident energy in the panel by taking into consideration the conductor sizes and all impedances. Do you think the POCO using only smaller wires can decrease the incident energy at the panel? An arc flash dude is guessing that at the moment when the electrician caused a short between the 208v high leg and chassis neutral. There was a transient that make it as high as 600v so it was poor bad luck and not common occurrence that the arc flash occurred that even progressed into a minor phase to phase short (screw to screw only). Thanks.
 

mbrooke

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United States
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Technician
POCO is not governed by the NEC, so they can size wires as they see fit. Sometimes if they know a structure will not draw more then X amps they will size the wires to that. Further wire in open air can tolerate higher currents without getting to hot so that to can further reduce wire size. There are 200amp homes in the US being fed with #6AL.


Here are some examples, which are conservative BTW.


https://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet34


https://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet35
 

tersh

Senior Member
Location
new york
POCO is not governed by the NEC, so they can size wires as they see fit. Sometimes if they know a structure will not draw more then X amps they will size the wires to that. Further wire in open air can tolerate higher currents without getting to hot so that to can further reduce wire size. There are 200amp homes in the US being fed with #6AL.


Here are some examples, which are conservative BTW.


https://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet34


https://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet35

How do those differ to THHN?

POCO used wires cheaper than THHN?

In the Electrical Plan, the engineer can use the same size as POCO's to connect the service entrance main breaker to the POCO conductors arguing making it bigger would be useless since POCO used those size? Smaller wires are easy to maneuver inside the main breaker. Here just adding a main breaker would take long city hall process. This is to ensure people won't just change the service entrance panels and breakers anytime. In the US. You can change or alter the gutter or main breaker before the service meters without any permit? (just curious)
 

GoldDigger

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Just FYI, "chromated leather" refers to leather which has been treated with potassium chromate during the tanning process. This is common in many leather products. It does not refer to a metallic coating.
There are some concerns these days about the effect of chromated leather on the substantial number of people who are sensitive to chromium compounds.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
How do those differ to THHN?

POCO used wires cheaper than THHN?

In the Electrical Plan, the engineer can use the same size as POCO's to connect the service entrance main breaker to the POCO conductors arguing making it bigger would be useless since POCO used those size? Smaller wires are easy to maneuver inside the main breaker. Here just adding a main breaker would take long city hall process. This is to ensure people won't just change the service entrance panels and breakers anytime. In the US. You can change or alter the gutter or main breaker before the service meters without any permit? (just curious)

Cable assemblies he posted links to, are aluminum conductors, one bare conductor with one strand being a steel support wire - aluminum would stretch too easily if not for that steel strand. That bare is also normally used for the grounded conductor. Then there are insulated conductors wrapped around the bare messenger conductor. They usually have XLPE insulation - much more durable and able to withstand what they will be exposed to than THHN/THWN types of insulation. It is intended for aerial use only and not intended to be run in raceways or to be used below grade at all.

Running in free air gives it different ampacity characteristics than inside cable sheath or raceway. POCO's still use different ampacity selection methods than we use for NEC wiring though. But at same time we have to consider how hot we want to run something inside a building where their stuff is mostly outside buildings or in vaults if inside. If we overheat something there is risk of starting a fire, if they overheat something it is usually more isolated and not as much of a fire risk.

More conductor (of any size or type) between the source and any point of interest means more resistance across that distance which lowers available fault current, compared to what is available at the source. I keep telling you how incident energy is dependent on details. Simply adding 10 feet of supply conductor to an installation adds enough resistance to make a difference in lowering the available fault current to some degree. This is part of why fault current at dwellings is generally considered to be somewhat low - they often have some length of conductor between the dwelling service and the source transformer that is going to be current limiting to some degree, and just 10-20 feet of conductor makes a huge difference in a majority of installs.
 

RumRunner

Senior Member
Location
SCV Ca, USA
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Retired EE
Cable assemblies he posted links to, are aluminum conductors, one bare conductor with one strand being a steel support wire - aluminum would stretch too easily if not for that steel strand. That bare is also normally used for the grounded conductor. Then there are insulated conductors wrapped around the bare messenger conductor. They usually have XLPE insulation - much more durable and able to withstand what they will be exposed to than THHN/THWN types of insulation. It is intended for aerial use only and not intended to be run in raceways or to be used below grade at all.

Running in free air gives it different ampacity characteristics than inside cable sheath or raceway. POCO's still use different ampacity selection methods than we use for NEC wiring though. But at same time we have to consider how hot we want to run something inside a building where their stuff is mostly outside buildings or in vaults if inside. If we overheat something there is risk of starting a fire, if they overheat something it is usually more isolated and not as much of a fire risk.

More conductor (of any size or type) between the source and any point of interest means more resistance across that distance which lowers available fault current, compared to what is available at the source. I keep telling you how incident energy is dependent on details. Simply adding 10 feet of supply conductor to an installation adds enough resistance to make a difference in lowering the available fault current to some degree. This is part of why fault current at dwellings is generally considered to be somewhat low - they often have some length of conductor between the dwelling service and the source transformer that is going to be current limiting to some degree, and just 10-20 feet of conductor makes a huge difference in a majority of installs.


After going through all these tangents-- the title is not appropriate to be called science anymore . . . let alone considered to be “The Science of Arc Flash.”
From grounding, to blown circuit breakers to appropriate space suit, this whole topic is starting to be a joke.

Science and engineering are both in the same boat. . . they both work endlessly on something guided by their discipline.

Engineering assembles new things and a lot of these things that are put together are elements of old
things. From this effort, new interesting things and brand new things emerge.

Science is the systematic study of the nature of everything around us . The properties of materials and the physical universe that provide the necessary elements to cause things to happen. Science is rational while fundamentalism (which is where this whole thing is leading us to) is irrational. Science explains how things are-- based on accumulated facts.

Engineering accepts what had been generally accepted-- either by practice or results that seem to have the most benefit. So, engineers make the stuff while science takes that stuff apart and even reverse engineer.

The big difference between the two is: The engineer accepts what he consider is true. Scientists don't believe in anything. (you can't convince a scientist to believe what you think.)

Since scientists' work is continuum-- whatever they think that might be true at a time-- is good until new evidence shows up. Then they start from where they started to a point that they will ignore what had been accepted in the past.

Arc happens when there is presence of gas, the right type of gas for an arc to happen. This is aided by the interaction between the properties of materials along with electrical energy.

OP had evolved from serious scientific investigations which ignited curiosity including me, until it
became a litany of YouTube tidbits that offer no new useful information.

Instead of getting obsessed in posting super high definition pics of blown circuit breakers and burned wires and terminals--it would be more beneficial if investigations were focused on the cause of arc
flash.

How it started, how it can be prevented and what the contributing factor that led to it, would be worth the time spent.

The absence of this “scientific” information diminishes the dissemination of quality educational tools for learners.

The endless litany accompanied by high definition presentation (photos) might as well be called “thumb nails” of electrical boo boos.

Blown panels and breakers don't possess the quality of incidents that deserve to be called science.
 
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