New to the Montana area, great place to be, if you haven't made it here you should make it a point. Recently I went to a jobsite, new home under construction, to talk to an electrical contractor about a job. Never worked in Montana as an electrician, so looked around to see what kind of work he did. He had installed a 200amp service outside, combo meter-main with distribution(16 circuits), which had feed-thru lugs. He was using these lugs to feed a 200amp panel in basement with main lugs only. Anyone know if this is common practice here? I would have thought that over- current protection would have to be provided for panel downstairs. If anyone is wondering the run downstairs is over fifty feet. What do you think?
Residential panel
- Thread starter bobh
- Start date
- Status
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Residential panel
Where do you find anything wrong with this ?Its all one building
Where do you find anything wrong with this ?Its all one building
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Residential panel
The panel in the basement does have overcurrent protection, the 200 amp main at the meter.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Residential panel
Might add that this type of panel offers a lot of advantages.Easy to add pool,garage,AC,HOT TUB.
I call them a trailer panel
Might add that this type of panel offers a lot of advantages.Easy to add pool,garage,AC,HOT TUB.
I call them a trailer panel
Re: Residential panel
The only concern now would be, the size and type of cable to the basement panel, and is this now a "Sub Panel" or an extension of the Main Lighting and Appliance Branch Circuit Panel.
Do we need seperation of Grounded and Grounding conductors if the latter applies?
Roger
The only concern now would be, the size and type of cable to the basement panel, and is this now a "Sub Panel" or an extension of the Main Lighting and Appliance Branch Circuit Panel.
Do we need seperation of Grounded and Grounding conductors if the latter applies?
Roger
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: Residential panel
This seems to be the same set-up that my parents home in Florida was done.
This seems to be the same set-up that my parents home in Florida was done.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Residential panel
It is a sub panel.So yes seperate ground and neutrals
It is a sub panel.So yes seperate ground and neutrals
electricman2
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Re: Residential panel
Roger
Roger
So are you saying that if the "sub panel" was fed from a breaker instead of the feed through lugs, then it would qualify as a sub?
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Residential panel
Any thing after the main breaker/service is a sub panel.I do see where one might look at it as an exstintion of the main panel.
Any thing after the main breaker/service is a sub panel.I do see where one might look at it as an exstintion of the main panel.
Re: Residential panel
Jim, how do you consider this "after the main breaker/service is a sub panel." you still haven't provided anything more than your opinion, give some substantiation.
As of your reasoning in your last post we could only use an enclosed breaker or fused disconnect for the "Main" not a panel
Roger
Jim, how do you consider this "after the main breaker/service is a sub panel." you still haven't provided anything more than your opinion, give some substantiation.
As of your reasoning in your last post we could only use an enclosed breaker or fused disconnect for the "Main" not a panel
Roger
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Residential panel
Roger will work on it in morning,on way out for tonight.I do see what your getting at ,so i will try to find code to back it
Roger will work on it in morning,on way out for tonight.I do see what your getting at ,so i will try to find code to back it
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Residential panel
Roger
This is an excellent topic!
What factor(s) determines what a subpanel is?
Pierre
Roger
This is an excellent topic!
What factor(s) determines what a subpanel is?
Pierre
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Residential panel
For the purposes of determining the grounding requirements only one thing matters.
Does the enclosure contain the service disconnecting means or not?
If an enclosure does not contain the service disconnecting means and is on the load side of the service disconnecting means it is simply 'load side equipment'.
[ October 31, 2004, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
As you know there is no such thing as a sub panel.
For the purposes of determining the grounding requirements only one thing matters.
Does the enclosure contain the service disconnecting means or not?
If an enclosure does not contain the service disconnecting means and is on the load side of the service disconnecting means it is simply 'load side equipment'.
There are some exceptions.
[ October 31, 2004, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Residential panel
The downstream panel will require conductors sized in accordance with the 200 amp OCPD protecting the bus that this panel is connected to.
The grounding scheme will require that the equipment ground conductor and the grounded conductor are separated in the downstream panel, sizing the EGC as per the 200 amp OCPD.
Pierre
The downstream panel will require conductors sized in accordance with the 200 amp OCPD protecting the bus that this panel is connected to.
The grounding scheme will require that the equipment ground conductor and the grounded conductor are separated in the downstream panel, sizing the EGC as per the 200 amp OCPD.
Pierre
physis
Senior Member
Re: Residential panel
Hi Roger,
When you say:
Editted to capitolize Roger's R
[ October 31, 2004, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
Hi Roger,
When you say:
I agree that you can look at it that way but if you do then you will have modified the panel and it's suitability as service equipment hasn't been established.
Editted to capitolize Roger's R
[ October 31, 2004, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
scott thompson
Senior Member
- Location
- Anaheim, California
Re: Residential panel
Hello everyone!
This is indeed a very good thread! A major thought processing one - covering the NEC in several Chapters, along with a bit of Designing Issues.
** O.T.: Just saw the Movie "Ray" (about Ray Charles Robinson, known simply as "Ray Charles"), and it was excellent!
Anyone interested in Music would enjoy this film.
OK, so much for the Movie Plug
< soapbox mode = ON >
The questions brought forth by Roger are quite interesting and debatable, but sometime soon Concrete answers will be derived. Might not be what everyone wanted to see, but nevertheless they will be what is per NEC minimums.
< soapbox mode = OFF >
I am looking at this scenario in several ways, and would like to offer my opinions only.
First off, I would like to toss out the normal recommendation of not using the term "Subpanel", in place of the term "Panelboard".
Reason being is this situation may not qualify for what we would figure as a "Subpanel".
(BTW, I am trying to eliminate the terms "Subpanel" and "Subfeeder" from use at work - and it isn't easy!).
#1: The "Grounding Thing":
In my opinion, what is done for separation of EGCs from the Grounded Conductors' Bus (at the remote Panelboard), would be in the idea set forth in 250-32 (99 NEC), or 250-24 (prior to 99 NEC).
Is there any Conductive path for imbalanced Current to flow between the remote Panelboard and the Service Equipment?
Bennie brought this one up quite a lot.
Even though it will be a Remote Panelboard, must we "Re-Ground" the Grounded Neutral Conductor at this Panel (connect it to an Electrode at that Panel), simply because the Neutral Bus Kit is directly Bonded to the Enclosure?
At Remote Structures we may do as described, but we also bond the Grounded Neutral Conductor to a Local GES.
We may also include an EGC with the Feeders to a Remote Structure's Panelboard, and in this case the Grounded Conductors for the Branch Circuits would land upon a Bus, which is _Isolated_ from the Grounded Enclosure. We will also bond the Metallic Equipment / Enclosures, along with the EGCs, to a Local GES at the Remote Structure.
To me, the Grounded/Grounding Conductors, on the Panelboard in question per this thread, would fall in lines of "If They May Be Allowed To Land Together, AND Also Bond The Panel's Enclosure", more than anything else.
If someone can produce facts of why this may, or may not be allowed (per what the NEC Articles/Sections state), please do so!
Although I do not install Remote Panelboards in this fashion (Ground Bonding, that is), it does not necessarily mean anything is incorrect.
#2: Extension of Service Equipment or Aux. Panelboard..Just what is it now?:
Well, at first I was thinking like Pierre's post mentioned; the Proximity of the Secondary Panel.
I see Panels being fed via "Feed-Thru Lugging" as an extension of the first Panel's Bus, but also right next to the first, or "Supplying" Panel.
"Next to" as being within the same room, normally nippled together, but not necessarily always that close - at least the two Panels are within the same room.
That again is only my opinion, brought on from what is "Commonly Seen/Done In The Field" over the Years.
To me - and again, just my opinion - any Panelboards (Load Centers, Panelboards, Switchgear, MCC) not _Physically_ connected to the Service Equipment (Service Equipment containing the Service Disconnecting means, along with the first point of connection for the Grounded Conductor to the GES - and possibly having the KWH Meter included, but not necessary), are Auxillary or Remote Equipment - and therefore do not qualify as being part of the Service Equipment.
The "Catch" on this thinking, comes from the use of an ATS!
To wrap things up, I would call the Panel a Remote Panelboard (or a "Subpanel"), simply because it is not in the same location of, or physically connected to, the Service Equipment.
(When I say "Physically Connected", I mean bolted or fastened together, or nippled together no further than a few feet apart).
As to the Grounding/Grounded Conductors and methods, I could see either method being valid.
Would love to know if my opinions are anywhere close to correct!
Scott
Hello everyone!
This is indeed a very good thread! A major thought processing one - covering the NEC in several Chapters, along with a bit of Designing Issues.
** O.T.: Just saw the Movie "Ray" (about Ray Charles Robinson, known simply as "Ray Charles"), and it was excellent!
Anyone interested in Music would enjoy this film.
OK, so much for the Movie Plug
< soapbox mode = ON >
The questions brought forth by Roger are quite interesting and debatable, but sometime soon Concrete answers will be derived. Might not be what everyone wanted to see, but nevertheless they will be what is per NEC minimums.
< soapbox mode = OFF >
I am looking at this scenario in several ways, and would like to offer my opinions only.
First off, I would like to toss out the normal recommendation of not using the term "Subpanel", in place of the term "Panelboard".
Reason being is this situation may not qualify for what we would figure as a "Subpanel".
(BTW, I am trying to eliminate the terms "Subpanel" and "Subfeeder" from use at work - and it isn't easy!).
#1: The "Grounding Thing":
In my opinion, what is done for separation of EGCs from the Grounded Conductors' Bus (at the remote Panelboard), would be in the idea set forth in 250-32 (99 NEC), or 250-24 (prior to 99 NEC).
Is there any Conductive path for imbalanced Current to flow between the remote Panelboard and the Service Equipment?
Bennie brought this one up quite a lot.
Even though it will be a Remote Panelboard, must we "Re-Ground" the Grounded Neutral Conductor at this Panel (connect it to an Electrode at that Panel), simply because the Neutral Bus Kit is directly Bonded to the Enclosure?
At Remote Structures we may do as described, but we also bond the Grounded Neutral Conductor to a Local GES.
We may also include an EGC with the Feeders to a Remote Structure's Panelboard, and in this case the Grounded Conductors for the Branch Circuits would land upon a Bus, which is _Isolated_ from the Grounded Enclosure. We will also bond the Metallic Equipment / Enclosures, along with the EGCs, to a Local GES at the Remote Structure.
To me, the Grounded/Grounding Conductors, on the Panelboard in question per this thread, would fall in lines of "If They May Be Allowed To Land Together, AND Also Bond The Panel's Enclosure", more than anything else.
If someone can produce facts of why this may, or may not be allowed (per what the NEC Articles/Sections state), please do so!
Although I do not install Remote Panelboards in this fashion (Ground Bonding, that is), it does not necessarily mean anything is incorrect.
#2: Extension of Service Equipment or Aux. Panelboard..Just what is it now?:
Well, at first I was thinking like Pierre's post mentioned; the Proximity of the Secondary Panel.
I see Panels being fed via "Feed-Thru Lugging" as an extension of the first Panel's Bus, but also right next to the first, or "Supplying" Panel.
"Next to" as being within the same room, normally nippled together, but not necessarily always that close - at least the two Panels are within the same room.
That again is only my opinion, brought on from what is "Commonly Seen/Done In The Field" over the Years.
To me - and again, just my opinion - any Panelboards (Load Centers, Panelboards, Switchgear, MCC) not _Physically_ connected to the Service Equipment (Service Equipment containing the Service Disconnecting means, along with the first point of connection for the Grounded Conductor to the GES - and possibly having the KWH Meter included, but not necessary), are Auxillary or Remote Equipment - and therefore do not qualify as being part of the Service Equipment.
The "Catch" on this thinking, comes from the use of an ATS!
To wrap things up, I would call the Panel a Remote Panelboard (or a "Subpanel"), simply because it is not in the same location of, or physically connected to, the Service Equipment.
(When I say "Physically Connected", I mean bolted or fastened together, or nippled together no further than a few feet apart).
As to the Grounding/Grounded Conductors and methods, I could see either method being valid.
Would love to know if my opinions are anywhere close to correct!
Scott
physis
Senior Member
Re: Residential panel
I'm going to engage this from the direction of proving that service equipment may not be "extended". I'm actually hoping for conclusive, code based, opposition.
Article 100 Service Equipment. The necessary equipment, usually consisting of a circuit breaker(s) or switch(es) and fuse(s) and their accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors to a building or other structure , or an otherwise designated area and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of the supply.
The Necessary equipment
Article 100 Service Conductors. The conductors from the service point to the service disconnecting means.
I'm going to paraphrse this to illustrate my interpretion of it.
Service equipment is what's connected to the service point so it can be turned off. And you can have main control, whatever that is.
article 230.66 Marking. Service equipment rated at 600 volts or less shall be marked to identify it as being suitable for use as service equipment. .....exclude individual meter sockets....
See article 100 Listed. It may be debatable but I don't think two or more field assembled components can fall under the umbrella of any of the individual component's listings in order that the assembly be considered listed.
I'm going to engage this from the direction of proving that service equipment may not be "extended". I'm actually hoping for conclusive, code based, opposition.
Article 100 Service Equipment. The necessary equipment, usually consisting of a circuit breaker(s) or switch(es) and fuse(s) and their accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors to a building or other structure , or an otherwise designated area and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of the supply.
The Necessary equipment
Article 100 Service Conductors. The conductors from the service point to the service disconnecting means.
I'm going to paraphrse this to illustrate my interpretion of it.
Service equipment is what's connected to the service point so it can be turned off. And you can have main control, whatever that is.
article 230.66 Marking. Service equipment rated at 600 volts or less shall be marked to identify it as being suitable for use as service equipment. .....exclude individual meter sockets....
See article 100 Listed. It may be debatable but I don't think two or more field assembled components can fall under the umbrella of any of the individual component's listings in order that the assembly be considered listed.
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