Non Licensed Work

[bthielen]

Re: Non Licensed Work

I too am a MN resident. I have owned rental property, retail busines, am a church trustee, and have also rewired my entire residence. My research has determined that all of the answers so far are quite accurate. We are allowed to rewire our own homes (place of residence not just homes we own) and that is all. A church, business, or other property that is not our principal residence are off-limits.

I don't know all the rules regarding licensing, but would it be possible to reinstate your license just by passing the appropriate exams, since you already were licensed once? This may be your best alternative.

Bob

 

[engy]

Re: Non Licensed Work

I've thought about re-taking the test so I can have my masters "just for fun".

I don't have time to research it now, but one of my previous post's I quoted the actual wording that an "owner" is exempt from licensing. It does not say home-owner. I don't know if MN defines "owner" somewhere.


"A church, business, or other property that is not our principal residence are off-limits."
I have not found any text in the Minnesota Statutes that supports that.

In the case of a church, who is the owner? I guess if the state came back and said "prove you are the owner", I'm not sure how I could do that.

The intent is probably homeowner, but I challenge all of you to look at the actual wording of your states statutes (like I did) and see just how specific the text is. It sounds like some states are very specific, MN is not.

 

[bthielen]

Re: Non Licensed Work

Perhaps this will help.

Try this website.
www.electricity.state.mn.us and click on the link to Statutes and Rules. Next, click on the .pdf file "Minnesota Statutes and Rules administered by the Electrcity Board". You will find this definition of owner:

"subd. 6e. owner...a natural person who physicall performs electrical work on premises the person owns and actually occupies as a residence or owns and will occupy as a residence upon completion of construction."

Hope this is helpful.

Bob

 

[engy]

Re: Non Licensed Work

Thanks Bob!

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Non Licensed Work

Originally posted by engy:
Sorry for wasting everyones time

I don't think I'd go that far.

 

[charlie]

Re: Non Licensed Work

When it comes to a piece of real property, there is required to always to be an owner. In a lot of cases the owner is an incorporated entity. I suspect that is the case with your church.

 

[kiss]

Re: Non Licensed Work

If a homeowner is allowed to do his own electrical work without any limitations(service,meters,panel etc..)it must be hard to compete in these areas for a contractor??
Why would a homeowner need us? Also isn't it that most homeowners call a electrician friend and than say, they did the work them selves?

 

[al]

Re: Non Licensed Work

Consider this situation. In Minnesota if you are an owner of a duplex the owner can wire the portion that he or she will reside in. The other part must be done by a licensed contractor.

 

[bthielen]

Re: Non Licensed Work

If a homeowner is allowed to do his own electrical work without any limitations(service,meters,panel etc..)it must be hard to compete in these areas for a contractor??

Quite the contrary. In my own experience as well as others I know, finding a contractor willing to do a small job such as 1/2 day or 1 day of work is hard to find, at least in this area. This is apparent as we must wait for months to get the job done. I have actually entertained the idea of changing careers and working toward obtaining licensing so I could fill the niche by only taking on those one-room additions, etc. I personally believe more homeowners would hire the work done because I could avoid expensive large equipment and overhead and therefore, offer my services at lower rates.

Why would a homeowner need us? Also isn't it that most homeowners call a electrician friend and than say, they did the work them selves?

One of the reasons for licensing is the education that backs it up. In many cases, with the exception of very basic wiring such as a circuit addition or receptacle replacement, the homeowners don't have access to code books and other necessary information to do the job right. In the end, they end up hiring it done because of lack of knowledge. If an electrician friend is providing the work or information as you suggest (and I'm sure this happens) aren't they only biting the hand that feeds them? If they are not properly licensed to contract the work, they are taking some very serious risk, are they not? I don't know what the repercussions are so maybe it's not as much risk as I believe.

Bob

 

[kiss]

Re: Non Licensed Work

You make some interesting points, that it's hard to get a contractor to return calls let alone do the small job.

 

[kiss]

Re: Non Licensed Work

You make some interesting points, that it's hard to get a contractor to return calls let alone do the small job.

 

[jcook980]

Re: Non Licensed Work

This topic appears to be beaten to death but in some states, licensed Electrical Engineers have some of the privileges of electricians. A quick check of the Minnesota Administrative Rules for regulating electricians here seems to indicate that Minnesota does allow Professional Electrical Engineers some of the privileges of electricians. Perhaps the original poster should contact the state electrical board for clarification. He once held, after all, a Master's license and now he is a licensed PE.

[ March 02, 2004, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: jcook980 ]

 

[satcom]

Re: Non Licensed Work

hbiss,

...But with all that done, the audio equipment, if not connected to calcuated load, There goes the building

Satcom, don't quit your day job!

If you belive, connecting audio equipment, in a church sound system, without calucating the load is ok then, you may be one of those, using extension cords, and power strips loaded to the max, and then wonder why you have a fire.
The use of proper wiring methods, for these installations is also important. As to proper raceways and boxes, every installation has differant requirements, and when you talk class of wiring, you still must consider what type of protection is required, A good example of this is where low voltage smokes are installed in commercial buildings, sure you could run the smokes with open wiring, but the signal devices must be run in pipe. With the audio systems, it is as you stated, depends on the system requirements. There is more then NEC to refer to,
You may want to check the Radio Engineers Handbook, it has a good example of recommended wiring practices. Better keep your day job.

[ March 02, 2004, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: satcom ]

 

[hbiss]

Re: Non Licensed Work

...If you belive, connecting audio equipment... without calucating the load is ok then, you may be one of those, using extension cords, and power strips loaded to the max, and then wonder why you have a fire.

What the heck are you complaining about here? Are you talking about the load the sound equipment will require from the branch circuit? Doesn't sound like it. Of course that has to be determined and suitable branch circuits need to be installed.

If you are talking about the load on the output of the amplifier(s) from the speakers, I'm here to tell you that too low an impedance will shut down the amp or at least cause severe audio problems long before there is a danger of fire. This is, of course, if somebody didn't use 22ga wire to connect 1000 watts worth of 8 ohm speakers.

My time as a fire fighter, I can recall 6 Church fires all Total loss, 4 of those fires were caused by sound systems... The speaker wiring is only one common cause of these fires, as you noted the way it is installed is very critical, proper raceway and boxes... If they would just keep the equipment out of closets

Sorry to pick on you Satcom, but the only thing you said that has any validity is that the equipment should be kept out of closets, though I have seen such installations in closets done properly so that there will be no overheating. Seems fires are always blamed on electrical problems or maybe in this case the sound systems. It's really tough to determine a cause if you are not an expert fire and arson investigator and these areas are the easiest to point a finger at if the cause is not obvious. But if the equipment was installed by amateurs who knows.

I guess my point is that the common practice or "tradition" of allowing untrained and unknowledgeable members of the church design, install and maintain sound equipment is a very dangerous practice. In the hands of a professional anything can be made to work, (even closets) but let some DIYers at it and not only is the church throwing away money but it is putting their members and property in jeopardy and that's just plain stupid!

Oh, and by the way, sound systems are my day job.

-Hal

[ March 03, 2004, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: hbiss ]

 

[satcom]

Re: Non Licensed Work

Hal,

...It's not the class 2 wiring that is the problem it the fact that most high end power amps require class 1 wiring but no one makes any such beast. so the speaker wiring has to be installed in a chapter 3 method. But most think that Zip cord wire is ok ...

The above is where trouble starts, as you must know All amps are not the same, you can't just hook them up, run some zip, and well the speakers work, however what you say above is sad but true, and this is what causes problems, I don't think we were on the same page before.
On overloading of circuits, this is one of many problems in church audio systems, when i said calculate, total your load requirement, and provide eniough circuits, and install in proper raceway and boxes, not extension cords or power strips.
On the output circuits, be sure what class of amp you have, and use the proper wiring for that application.
My years in fire fighting, gave me the chance to see fire from the inside out, One related to audio equipment was in a night club, when we entered the building, the hot spot was at the shelf holding the amp. the fire found it's way in a nearby chase and jumped to the attic. We had to back out when the kitchen fired. The next day we were there when they investigated possible cause,
they brought the amp, and shelf out in the lot, where you could see where a cement resistor had burned clear through the frame and ignited the shelf. Not circuit wiring, but shorted output, causing load resistor to overheat. Today there are some limiting devices and circuits in amps., do they protect against every hazzard, probley not.
I am sure the engineer working on the church project, will do a good job, he posted what he was doing, so I am sure he will invistigate before he runs into any trouble.
I just hope he dosen't put the equipment in a storage closet.

 

[hbiss]

Re: Non Licensed Work

...they brought the amp, and shelf out in the lot, where you could see where a cement resistor had burned clear through the frame and ignited the shelf. Not circuit wiring, but shorted output, causing load resistor to overheat. Today there are some limiting devices and circuits in amps., do they protect against every hazzard, probley not.

Well, I don't doubt your story but this sounds like it was a very old possibly consumer amp, no such thing as a "load resistor" and its demise probably had nothing to do with the output load.

Output transistors can short as well as power supply capacitors taking with them any number of things. The fact that this was so catastropic makes me believe that this was poorly installed, maintained and possibly abused or tampered with.

I can't see why the heat wasn't confined to the case (what you call a frame?) unless something was removed. Normally a failure like this would cause the mains OCPD on the amp to open. Most early solid state amps didn't have sophisticated protection circuitry but many did have a circuit breaker in series with the output. This is normally prone to nuisance tripping as it is and a lower impedance than allowed would certainly cause it to open. Most amps today are pretty much "bullet proof".

Consider also that regardless of the vintage the amp should have been UL listed. UL always has tested heavily in the safety area and the amp must be designed with absolute safeguards to prevent it from becoming an incendiary device. The tests are done not only under normal operating conditions but under abnormal conditions with things like excessive line voltage, ventilation openings blocked and a continuous sine wave input with the outputs dead shorted etc. To pass the test the amp can self destruct but under no curcumstances can it catch on fire or burst into flames nor can it pose a threat to person or property.

Sounds to me then that if your story were true there should have been a proper investigation into why this amp caused a fire because unless somebody tampered with it it shouldn't have. Just to say that the output was overloaded is naive.

-Hal

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: Non Licensed Work

I just recently watched a fairly new QSC shoot a 3 inch flame out the back, twice.
I never knew that the guy that caused it could run so fast!!

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: Non Licensed Work

...and it never shut down.
I believe it was 800 x 2 @ 4ohm.

 

[caosesvida]

Re: Non Licensed Work

I know all of you that have done residential work will have lots of horror stories about what they have seen "homeowners and others" do. Here we have testing, license but very poor policing. Even on bigger jobs there are no permits and inspections pulled on existing buildings, ie. lighting retros where they change the wiring to run two light fixtures from one ballast. its a mess. The only thing that surpirses me is that more houses don't burn and more people are not killed or injured.

 

[hbiss]

Re: Non Licensed Work

I just recently watched a fairly new QSC shoot a 3 inch flame out the back, twice.
I never knew that the guy that caused it could run so fast!! ...and it never shut down.
I believe it was 800 x 2 @ 4ohm

You say a guy caused it. What did he do?

-Hal