Non Licensed Work

[engy]

We may hate to admit it, but a homeowner (owner)may do their own electrical work.

I am a former Master Electrician and Licenced PE
(Worst thing I ever did was let my master's lapse after becoming an engineer)

One day last week I was at church burying conduit and installing floor boxes for a sound system in our new sanctuary. You-know-who shows up and has a problem with me doing electrical work. I explained I was a church member and thought we could do our own work. He said that is fine for residential, but not for a Church (being a PE didn't seem to impress him much either). He gave me the lecture, and then left without making a big deal of the situation. I'm thinking cool, he had his say, and I was able to continue, since the concrete was being poured the next day. Today I hear he was back and asking even more question.

Minnesota exempts owners from being licenced. The members of our church are the owners. I just happen to be head trustee and a council member.

Finally the questions:
1. is it a legitimate arguement on my part to do electrical work as an "owner"?
2. Would this be limited to trustees or council members? or any member?
3. How do you inspectors deal with churches?

 

[roger]

Re: Non Licensed Work

Michael, in N.C. a homeowner can do his own wiring on his residence, but no where else. This would mean he couldn't perform electrical work on a business or rental property he might own.

In Asheville a homeowner has to pass a simple test to be allowed to pull a permit.

The churches I have worked on as a volunteer have had a permit pulled by a Licensed EC.

The problem is, not all churches have someone of your caliber performing the volunteer work, and after all, it is a place of assembly.

Roger

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Non Licensed Work

Down here an owner may build his entire house.However he can not wire a commercial building for himself.This probably will come under your states constitution.And a permit is still needed.
It being a church has nothing to do with building codes,it is a building.No exemptions apply.

[ February 12, 2004, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[engy]

Re: Non Licensed Work

This is how the Minnesota Statute reads for license exemptions...
(f) An owner shall not be required to hold or obtain a license...

Doesn't say "home-owner", says "owner".
I'm not sure of their intent, or if there is a definition of "owner".

 

[engy]

Re: Non Licensed Work

We do have a permit pulled by a licensed electrical contractor. The EC is doing almost all of the work, the main exceptions being the sound system and Tel/Data.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Non Licensed Work

Utah is similiar to what Roger stated...homeowners can wire their house, but only licensed professionals can wire a commercial building.

 

[goldstar]

Re: Non Licensed Work

All the answers you've received so far have been right on the money. You can do all the work you want to on your own home but not anywhere else. The deep down and real reason has to do with LIABILITY. If (God forbid) there is a fire in your church some two years down the line and it is determined that it was electrical and in the area in which you worked, the first question that the insurance company is going to ask is "was a permit taken out for this work and who did it ?" If it comes back that you did the work having no license, permit or insurance - then your church has no insurance and would have to sue you personally for damages. If it's just localized or structural damage you'll get off fairly easy. If there's death or personal injury - you can kiss it goodbye !!!

The fines here in NJ for unlicensed work start at $ 1,000.00 if you're caught. I'd be willing to bet that MN has similar fines.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: Non Licensed Work

if you are a licensed p.e. and a ex-master electrician you know the importance to have all commercial and industrial work inspected. don't get upset with the inspector, he's just doing his job and at the same time covering his butt! i wouldn't be suprised if the contractor doing the base building work called him out to see whats going on? there is an easy solution, get him to get the sound and data permit and work under his license if that agreeable. churches are usually fairly able to pay for work necessary to operate if not they can find contractors who will work with them! remember, class two wiring is one of the bigest causes of building fires...

 

[satcom]

Re: Non Licensed Work

Quote:" remember, class two wiring is one of the bigest causes of building fires... "

My time as a fire fighter, I can recall 6 Church fires all Total loss, 4 of those fires were caused by sound systems.

I had a church member that was a union electrician with 20 years plus, ask if he did the work, would I pull the permit. I told him it would be ok only if I was active with the job, and I would not charge for my time. The church was in my town, so it pays to help in your own town. If the EC is local he may work with you.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Non Licensed Work

Charlie,

remember, class two wiring is one of the bigest causes of building fires...

725.2 Class 2 Circuit. The portion of the wiring system between the load side of a Class 2 power source and the connected equipment. Due to its power limitations, a Class 2 circuit considers safety from a fire initiation standpoint and provides acceptable protection from electric shock.

What am I missing? I thought that the idea of a Class 2 circuit was that it is very unlikely to cause a fire as there is not enough heat energy released to ignite common building materials.
Don

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: Non Licensed Work

it's a combination of "no raceway " and "allowable overcurrent protection" by the nec.
alot of this equipment is manufactured overseas and does not function--then what happens? you might have a speaker cable running through a ceiling space just so hot that it's glowing! a third problem is we do not respect class two wiring as we should!

 

[satcom]

Re: Non Licensed Work

Charlie,

The speaker wiring, is only one common cause of these fires, as you noted the way it is installed is very critical, proper raceway and boxes.
But with all that done, the audio equipment, if not connected to calcuated load, There goes the building, The audio equipment itself goes, which is placed in a closet, on a wood shelf, with papers usually stored on shelves in the same closet.

 

[hurk27]

Re: Non Licensed Work

Charlie
It's not the class 2 wiring that is the problem it the fact that most high end power amps require class 1 wiring but no one makes any such beast. so the speaker wiring has to be installed in a chapter 3 method. But most think that Zip cord wire is ok when its not a pro amp can deliver voltage as high as 200 volts PEP and as much as 50 amps on some of those peeks. and when the amp gets pushed into cliipping the clip level is a DC current at 6db's over the RMS rating of the amp. so a 500 watt RMS per ch. power amp will produce 2000 watt DC current into an 8 ohm load.

 

[satcom]

Re: Non Licensed Work

Wayne,
If they would just keep the equipment out of closets, it could prevent a lot of fires.
I see some nice racks and enclosures used in some churches, guess it all depends on who is doing the work.

 

[tshea]

Re: Non Licensed Work

In my area of WI homeowners (owners) may do their own work IF the residence is their primary domicile. Landlords are NOT allowed to work on their properties. In no case may the owner do any commercial or industrial electrical work--aside from maintenance. A licensed & bonded (with the municipality) electrician is the only one allowed to do electrical work on the commercial (church) or industrial property.
As a former ME and PE you may work as a SUB for the EC! The inspector can not tell the EC who he can or cannot hire!!

 

[hbiss]

Re: Non Licensed Work

...One day last week I was at church burying conduit and installing floor boxes for a sound system in our new sanctuary.

I don't think I would have a problem with that particular work if I were an inspector unless you have to be licensed to do LV work where you are. Class 1 and wiring for power and light is something else again. What exactly was his objection or was it because he didn't know what you were doing?

...My time as a fire fighter, I can recall 6 Church fires all Total loss, 4 of those fires were caused by sound systems.

That doesn't surprise me. Some of these churches have sound installations and equipment that would make a Broadway theatre look like small change. Why? You got me but it's common practice for volunteer parisioners usually with no experience to design and install them with the church forking over the cash.

...It's not the class 2 wiring that is the problem it the fact that most high end power amps require class 1 wiring but no one makes any such beast. so the speaker wiring has to be installed in a chapter 3 method. But most think that Zip cord wire is ok ...

Yup. That's one of my pet peeves and I've written a lot about it here in the past. The NEC as well as sound equipment manufacturers need to get on the ball and get this situation resolved.

...and when the amp gets pushed into cliipping the clip level is a DC current at 6db's over the RMS rating of the amp. so a 500 watt RMS per ch. power amp will produce 2000 watt DC current into an 8 ohm load.

Well, not quite. There should never be a DC component on the output of an amp unless there is a problem with it. Really good way to toast your speakers. Most commercial amps will have protection circuitry that will limit or shut it down if severe clipping or other problems occur. And, there is absolutely no reason for "home" or audiophile equipment to be use in a commercial installation, although I did relate the story about the time I saw 1800 watts of "home stereo" amps being used to provide background music in a dentists office!

 

[mjf]

Re: Non Licensed Work

I'm only required to be licensed in the local cities. In most of the surrounding towns, I can do residential or commercial, provided my insurance is up to date, I pull a permit, and get inspected.
I hope that never changes because I don't have the education to ever, ever even come close to passing the test to be licensed.
I feed my kids by SAFELY doing the electrical work that I know how to do, and I don't mess with stuff I don't know about. My old boss told me - "when it comes to electric, a little knowledge can be very dangerous" - I've heeded this ominous warning over the years and don't work outside my limited knowledge

 

[pierre]

Re: Non Licensed Work

Mike
There is a substantial effort being made as we speak to make Dutchess County a licensed County. If I were you, I would see what you can do to make it possible to have the necessary requirements to be able to either pass the test or get 'grandfathered' in as a contractor. That would mean studying and learning as much as you can. This license situation is going to come to a head in less than two years!!! Otherwise you may become someones employee.

Pierre

 

[mjf]

Re: Non Licensed Work

pierre,

Thanks for the heads-up!

 

[goldstar]

Re: Non Licensed Work

Removed quoted advertisement. Charlie

This might be OK to post in this forum but why did you post it here under this topic ? It has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Try posting it under the "electrical contracting" section of the forum with a topic heading of your choice. You might get more responses.

[ February 15, 2004, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: charlie ]