Mobile Home

[iwire]

Re: Mobile Home

OK I will play along trying not to keep repeating myself.

I have a small house and loud kids so I decided I needed room of my own. I bought a mobile home and parked it in my backyard. I ran a feeder to it from my house.

Is the service in my house now "part of the mobile home"?

In your opinion does 250.32 now apply?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Mobile Home

Originally posted by iwire:
OK I will play along trying not to keep repeating myself.

I have a small house and loud kids so I decided I needed room of my own. I bought a mobile home and parked it in my backyard. I ran a feeder to it from my house.

Is the service in my house now "part of the mobile home"?

No not part of the mobile home and yes, because you are feeding the mobile home from the service of your dwelling unit.

Should you have set a separate service for the mobile home beside the service for your house and it was with in thirty feet and in sight of the mobile home then it would be part of the mobile home and would not fall under the requirements of 250.32.


In your opinion does 250.32 now apply?

 

[iwire]

Re: Mobile Home

Why in your opinion does a separate structure require a ground rod?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Mobile Home

Originally posted by iwire:
Why in your opinion does a separate structure require a ground rod?

250.32 Buildings or Structures Supplied by Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s).
(A) Grounding Electrode. Building(s) or structure(s) supplied by feeder(s) or branch circuit(s) shall have a grounding electrode

 

[augie47]

Re: Mobile Home

Hey G.G.
It started out such a simple question 5 days ago, huh!

 

[iwire]

Re: Mobile Home

Originally posted by jwelectric:

Originally posted by iwire:
Why in your opinion does a separate structure require a ground rod?

250.32 Buildings or Structures Supplied by Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s).
(A) Grounding Electrode. Building(s) or structure(s) supplied by feeder(s) or branch circuit(s) shall have a grounding electrode

No kidding :roll:

The question is what purpose the grounding electrode required by 250.32 serves?

[ August 16, 2005, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Mobile Home

Originally posted by iwire:
[No kidding

 

[iwire]

Re: Mobile Home

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Why do you try to make it so hard? It is so simple that first year student can get it.
Look at what is being showed to you.................See it is not so hard.

I am done wasting my time with you.

[ August 16, 2005, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Mobile Home

Originally posted by iwire:

I am done wasting my time with you.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Mobile Home

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Son it is up to you. If you are so hard headed that you can?t learn any more then get mad and pout.

I am just trying to teach you something that you obviously don?t understand and you want to get mad and pout.

Hard headed? I never recall you being hard-headed, son.

 

[iwire]

Re: Mobile Home

Originally posted by jwelectric:
I am just trying to teach you something that you obviously don?t understand and you want to get mad and pout.

That is ridiculous, this has nothing to do with us disagreeing on the NEC many people disagree with me and I have no problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is when the posts turn personal, I would not put up with that kind of disrespect in person, I certainly am not going to put up with it here.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Mobile Home

Originally posted by iwire:

Originally posted by jwelectric:
I am just trying to teach you something that you obviously don?t understand and you want to get mad and pout.

That is ridiculous, this has nothing to do with us disagreeing on the NEC many people disagree with me and I have no problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is when the posts turn personal, I would not put up with that kind of disrespect in person, I certainly am not going to put up with it here.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Mobile Home

Originally posted by georgestolz:

Your case would be better served if there was a specific reference in 550 negating 250.32. But there isn't. Bob is correct. The idea that 550 is the last word on anything if a MH enters the picture is bunk. The first four chapters apply unless specifically modified. There are several modications made (as in the remote service requirement), but none reference not needing to drive a ground rod at the remote structure. Bob (and I) perceive that when nothing is said, nothing is modified. Therefore, 250.32 still applies.

And it could be a change in the '05 (which I'm too lazy to go get at this hour), but there is no reference to 250.32 in 550.32(D) in the 2002.

George
You need to read the whole of 550.32 (D) and any references to any other section that may be in this section.
This is a change in the 2002 cycle from the 1999 cycle.

2002 250.32
(D) Additional Outside Electrical Equipment. Means for connecting a mobile home accessory building or structure or additional electrical equipment located outside a mobile home by a fixed wiring method shall be provided in either the mobile home service equipment or the local external disconnecting means permitted in 550.32(A).

550.32 Service Equipment.
(A) Mobile Home Service Equipment. The mobile home service equipment shall be located adjacent to the mobile home and not mounted in or on the mobile home. The service equipment shall be located in sight from and not more than 9.0 m (30 ft) from the exterior wall of the mobile home it serves. The service equipment shall be permitted to be located elsewhere on the premises, provided that a disconnecting means suitable for service equipment is located in sight from and not more than 9.0 m (30 ft) from the exterior wall of the mobile home it serves. Grounding at the disconnecting means shall be in accordance with 250.32.

As pointed out in the 2002 cycle of the NEC 250.32 comes into play when the service disconnect is more than 30 feet away or is out of sight from the mobile home. Yes this does kill any thought that a second rod would be needed at the mobile home itself.

Agree or disagree it don?t matter to me at all. I have posted the sections of article 550 that apply to the service disconnect, the grounded (neutral) conductor and the grounding of a mobile home as outlined in 550.16 and 550.32.

The disagreement is with the code not with me!



[ August 17, 2005, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[roger]

Re: Mobile Home

Jw, let me get this straight, the way you interpret your quoted sections of article 550 (specifically 550.32(A)) makes you think CMP 19 changed or modified the grounding requirements for mobile home lot service equipment to be different from the 250 grounding requirements for service equipment installed in or at any other occupancy.

Is this correct?


Roger

[ August 17, 2005, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Mobile Home

Originally posted by roger:
Jw, let me get this straight, the way you interpret your quoted sections of article 550 (specifically 550.32(A)) makes you think CMP 19 changed or modified the grounding requirements for mobile home lot service equipment to be different from the 250 grounding requirements for service equipment installed in or at any other occupancy.

Is this correct?

 

[roger]

Re: Mobile Home

Jw, the problem is we are stuck with the definition of "Structure" whether we like it or not.

The NEC has decided to add this definition as a stand alone item over and above the definition of "Building".

With that said, 250.32(A) requires us to install a GE at a "Structure" to earth the components as shown and described below.

(A) Grounding Electrode. To provide a path to earth for lightning, each building or structure must have its disconnecting means [225.31] grounded (earthed) to one of the following electrodes [250.50 and 250.52(A)]:

Underground metal water pipe [250.52(A)(1)]

Metal frame of the building or structure [250.52(A)(2)]

Concrete-encased steel [250.52(A)(3)]

Ground ring [250.52(A)(4)]


Author?s Comment: See Article 100 for the definitions of ?Building? and ?Structure.?
Where none of the above grounding electrodes are available at a building or structure, then one or more of the following must be used:
Ground rod [250.52(A)(5)]

Metal underground systems [250.52(A)(7)]
Author?s Comment: Grounding the building or structure disconnecting means to the earth:
? Is intended to limit elevated voltages on the metal parts from lightning [250.4(A)(1)]. Figure 250?81
? It doesn't?t serve as a low-impedance fault-current path to clear ground faults. In fact, the Code prohibits the use of the earth as the sole return path since it?s such a poor conductor of current [250.4(A)(5) and 250.4(B)(4)].
? It doesn't?t protect electrical or electronic equipment from lightning voltage transients.
Exception: A grounding electrode isn?t required where only one branch circuit serves the building or structure. For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit is considered to be a single branch circuit. Figure 250?82

(B) Bonding Requirements. To quickly clear a ground fault and remove dangerous voltage from metal parts, the building or structure disconnecting means must be grounded (bonded) to an effective ground-fault current path in accordance with (1) or (2) [250.4(A)(3)]. Figure 250?83

(1) Equipment Grounding (Bonding) Conductor. The building or structure disconnecting means can be bonded to an equipment grounding (bonding) conductor, as described in 250.118, installed with the feeder conductors. Figure 250?84

Are we in agreement here?

FPN, Graphic and italicized text are from Mike Holts Training material.

Roger

[ August 17, 2005, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Mobile Home

I just want to state again my anger is not from Mike (JW) disagreeing with me about the NEC.

Many people have shown me that my opinions have been wrong. Don R has pointed out my errors countless times over the last three years.

I have never had a beef with any of these people, they all have had enough class to talk about a subject without trying to belittle anyone.

The problem here is strictly the condescending attitude that Mike finds necessary. It is for that reason and that reason alone I gave up discussing this code issue with Mike.

On this particular issue I feel I am right, Mike feels he is right, fine we move on.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Mobile Home

Please take note that in Mr. Holt?s illustration he used two buildings just as used in the illustrations used in the NEC handbook.

Not once have I saw a service mounted on a post or pole used in one of these illustrations by any one in the educational field.

Not one of those who disagree with me has addressed the working found in 550.32 as others as well as I have posted.

I am not trying to belittle any one just trying to get you to address those articles that have been posted instead of ignoring them. It seems to me that the continued referral to 250.32 instead of addressing 550.32 is as much an insult as any thing else that could take place.

An article has been put forth that I think over rides that found in 250.32 and it has been ignored. It is my belief that these post are correct and can not be dislodged due to the lack of those in disagreement not addressing them.

This all started on page one of this thread when it was first pointed out that 550.32 amends 250.32 by Haskindm and what kind of response has been given from that point on? Nothing except one or two who can?t see 550.32 for looking in 100 at the definition of structure.

Sixty five posts later and no one has addressed 550.32 (A) through (D) yet.

If you feel the need to drive the rod at the mobile home by all means grab a hammer and start pounding. I will make the statement that I think that it is a waste of time and energy.

 

[roger]

Re: Mobile Home

Jw, did you read Mike Holts comments, one of which is, to read the definition of Building and Structure in article 100?

Do you really think his material or anyones material can show every possibillity of a "Structure" ?

Now, the bottom line is, CMP 19 says that under 550.32(A) the grounding requirements for mobile home lot service equipment do not differ from grounding requirements for service equipment installed in or at any other occupancy.

Roger

[ August 17, 2005, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[GG]

Re: Mobile Home

[ August 17, 2005, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: GG ]