licensing?

[jeff43222]

Re: licensing?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Keep one thing in mind.Hiring a licensed contractor does not mean that licensed electricians will be doing the work .Here in Tampa FL it is common for a contractor to hire helpers and unlicensed journeymen to wire anything.The master is not even required to ever see the job and many don't.All that happens is that the job is covered by insurance and it is inspected by AHJ.And some even do remodels with no permit.

Most of the above would be illegal if they did business that way around here. Contractors can hire unlicensed people and let them do wiring work, but every unlicensed person must work under the immediate supervision of someone who holds at least a journeyman license. A licensed electrician can supervise a maximum of two unlicensed people at any time. Also, the master who signs the permit/inspection paperwork is responsible for all the electrical work done by the contractor, so if he just signs his name for a fee and shoddy work gets done, he will have to answer for it. And any remodel job requires a permit under state law. Inspectors here sometimes show up on job sites and ask to see license cards.

 

[charlie]

Re: licensing?

Don't forget that different states or localities have different rules with or without licensing.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: licensing?

i am for licensing for what type of work the man does.A basic license with indorsements for type of work being done.Someone doing pools and spas should take seperate test for that ,houses single phase should be a seperate indorsement,3 phase up to maybe 800 amps another.Maybe then we would get quailified electrician for the job at hand.

 

[goldstar]

Re: licensing?

it seems to be oriented towards reducing entry into the profession

Licensing is designed to reduce entry into a profession - it weeds out those that are not qualified to do the work.

In areas where licensing of electricians exists, there is nothing that prevents someone with a license from engaging in electrical work he is really not competant to do.

When this happens there is (or should be) a remedy. You can file a complaint with the Dept of Community Affairs or the state licensing board and possibly have his license suspended or even get a settlement from his insurance company for damages he/she might have created. If a non-licensed worker does the shoddy work - Who ya gonna call ? Ghostbusters ???

I am not convinced that licensing does much to prevent shoddy work

Licensing sure doesn't prevent someone from doing shoddy work but it at least establishes a minimum standard of training or education before he/she can contract business with the public.

 

[rattus]

Re: licensing?

From one who is not licensed, and does not work in the trade, I agree that licensing should be a requirement. Would you go to a an unlicensed doctor? Recently some scoundrel set up shop in a low rent district as an OB-GYN and was offering cut rate exams! He had a real job as well.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: licensing?

What do think we get with EC that wire 3000 homes a year ? They only hire installers at $8 to $10 hour. That works out to a house every 40 minutes.Do you think that licensed master even looks at the jobs ? Here he not required to hire so much as 1 licensed journeyman.Yes he is the guy they go after if something happens.What he is basically doing is relicensing others under his name.The homeowner thinks he received a house that was wired to code by profeshional electricians.The only hopes they have is in the inspector doing his job

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: licensing?

Originally posted by cigar:
As long as you stick with wiring hoses life is good.

I actually find "Hose" wiring to be quite challenging.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: licensing?

Scott, try crack.

Couldn't resist. Moderators, do your duty.

 

[goldstar]

Re: licensing?

What he is basically doing is relicensing others under his name.

Jim,

I agree that this issue is a real problem and it can only be corrected if the AHJ cites this company for violations or turns them into the licensing board. But therein lies another problem. Many of the inspectors in my area do inspections for several towns and don't have the time to cite individuals for violations such as poor workmanship. Most inspectors know however, as soon as they walk onto a job, that the master electrician was either never there or was there very infrequently because the violations are easy to spot. But again, still a tough thing to enforce. The only way I can see this being brought under check is if the violators' licenses are put in jeopardy.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: licensing?

goldstar,here doing it that way is not a violation.There is no requirement to have a journeyman with a card.I only wish they did require one.Nobody is willing to push it.EC don't want it because his men would want more $$$$$,general contractor doesn't want to see a hike in price and the homebuyer never wants a higher cost for a home.It is a very dangerous situation

 

[goldstar]

Re: licensing?

$$$$$ - That's capitalism.

Should we really be saying "God Bless America" in this situation ???

Our Electrical Contractors' Association has worked very hard to help create and enforce the licensing act in our state. You're not going to be able to do that as one individual but if you develop an association of contractors you can get lawyers and lobbyists to push forward a licensing act in your state that would be to your advantage.

Don't get me wrong, there's still a considerable amount of non-licensed work going on here in NJ but at least we've made attempts to keep it to a minimum by fining those who are caught violating the law. You're not going to stop someone from adding a couple of receptacles at his neighbor's house but at least you can curtail the amount of service upgrades and commercial work being done by non-licensed individuals if you have an enforced law to back you up.

[ December 27, 2004, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: goldstar ]

 

[charlie]

Re: licensing?

I am hearing all these "they should", "the law ought to be", "why don't they", etc. In the areas that have no requirements for extra journeymen or even journeymen, are there more fires and electrocutions? Is this documented as the root cause of the fires and electrocutions? If this is not done, why change the laws in you locality?

 

[jeff43222]

Re: licensing?

Originally posted by charlie:
I am hearing all these "they should", "the law ought to be", "why don't they", etc. In the areas that have no requirements for extra journeymen or even journeymen, are there more fires and electrocutions? Is this documented as the root cause of the fires and electrocutions? If this is not done, why change the laws in you locality?

Perhaps there are not a lot of documented cases of unlicensed work causing fires or fatalities in a given area, but I think when you have a lax licensing scheme, over the long term it results in a gradual decline of standards and training, and eventually getting a license will be seen by many people as more trouble than it's worth (i.e., Why bother getting a journeyman card if all the wiring jobs are going to day laborers?). With fewer and fewer people getting licensed, the contractors will say they have no choice but to hire untrained workers, who will work cheap. Why would anyone study hard and learn about maximum ampacity, conductor derating, etc., for such a job? Eventually it would be difficult to find electricians who know what they are doing.

Why do certain occupations require a license? Because of the potential for harm caused by an unlicensed person doing such work. No one questions the need for a doctor or lawyer to be licensed. Police departments can't just give a gun and badge to someone and send them out to work the streets unless that person has had extensive training first. It's the same in our line of work. Sure, even licensed people sometimes do things wrong, leading to dire consequences, but I bet if we just dispensed with licensing schemes altogether, we'd have a lot more bad things happening and a lot more dire consequences.

 

[charlie]

Re: licensing?

Jeff, you have some interesting comments. Indianapolis has self certification and the company pulls the permit on a single master's license. As far as I know, there are no requirements for journeymen except on prevailing wage jobs and yet there are three BAT approved courses in Indianapolis (ABC, IBEW, and IEC).

The vast majority of Indianapolis homes never see an inspector and most commercial jobs never see an inspector since the Company signs off that the wiring was done correctly. We have not had a lot of fires yet and I hope that trend continues.

 

[cigar]

Re: licensing?

My comments concerning house wiring ,and licensing are from what I have seen over the last 20 years.House wiring is the easiest to learn.It will always be where guys start.Rarely do you need more than a year to figure basic wiring.I am not saying the work is not important.It is just the easiest to teach and a good place to start .You will never convince me that you can be a professional electrican without school and hands on.I have fought the ignorance of codes on the job forever it seems.I think apprentices should have cards stating their experience level.Eg 1 year ,a journeyman should have to pass a test also.A customer would have some chance of getting someone competent.As A teaaacher and an electrical contractor I fight ignorance everyday.A significant amount of people just want to wire stuff.They dont have time for all that learning .and reading.But thats what makes lawyers rich.Tell a jury in court after an incident that hands on training was enough.They can take your home and put you in jail.It has been done in Florida.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: licensing?

Cigar,i think you missed something if you think houses are easy to wire.There are ton's of restrictive issues in a house.Spacing,gfci,afci,wire sizing,box fill,multi wire circuits,layouts can be far more critical.Usually several 3 ways and 4 ways ,spas,pools,sub panels,bonding ,And often they must design in the field there own circuits,and the biggest is dealing with a home buyer.There are many commercial electricians that will admit they would have a hard time wiring a house.Not because electric works differently but because of all the codes that get into play.
With mc now being widely accepted a greenie fresh out of highschool could easily be trained to be of some help in either residential or commercial.One of the supervisors in our company told me on thursday that with over 20 years in trade has never wired a house and im sure he is not alone.So all don't start there.I am glad that i have done both.Having worked both i can answer ads for either res. or com..I once was sent a journeyman from a alltrades company, i told them i needed a man that could run romex.What i got was a man that had no clue how to even put romex into a plastic box.I sent him back.It's easy to say anyone can wire a house but in reality guys that have only done commercial will fall on there butt if asked to do it.
Personally i am doing only commercial now because it is far easier physically and pays a little better

 

[cigar]

Re: licensing?

I again state that there is no comparison between residential and Industrial.I believe in the residential people.I have been one.But to compare house wiring to explosionproof work,motor controls,programmable logic controllers,4160 or 13800 volt services is crazy.I have done all facets of this work.I still wire a house for the right price.I dont have to take my 4inch rigid bender and threader to a home.I also dont need my wire tugger to pull 1200 foot runs of 500 kcmil wire to remote motor control centers.
I also teach residential,commercial,and industrial apprenticeship programs.Guess which one we start with first year.This will always be a big debate.Residential guys have to kill them selves usually to make a profit.The big money is always been the industrial work.Try to teach students time delay relays and starters.Thats why we leave it to third and fourth year.But rest assured last week I was drilling holes for a bigshots house.Whatever it takes to keep business rolling.

 

[highkvoltage]

Re: licensing?

Two IBEW Jouneyman Classifications (Lineman and Commerical Electrican), 5 City Journeyman Licenses, State Electrical Contractor's License, National Traffic Light and Control Cert. and State Fire Alarm License. Also certified in Teledata. I like to stay busy.