licensing?

[hasty]

Just curious, but Im wondering about the licensing held by most of the people that frequent this sight.
I am not a "licensed" electrician, but I grew up around, and doing electrical work. I grew up in a small town west of St. Louis,and a license was not (and still isnt) required. My dad had a small electrical business employing no more than three guys at any given time, and during the summers I worked with him also. It might sound crazy, but for my 10th birthday I got my own voltmeter and wire strippers. The funny thing is, I knew how to use them and what the readings meant. I am now 30 years old and have been in business for myself for 26 mos. I am SO far from knowing everything, but I have a working knowledge of electrical that
I would compare to over 75% of the "journeymen" electricians out there.
So when I read peoples posts saying hire only a "licensed electrician", Im wondering if its the general consensus that only licensed electricians
have the proper skills, or would it be based on a per person situation?
I dont want to start a big war here, But I would like some feedback.
Jim

 

[midget]

Re: licensing?

I have a couple thoughts about this, but I'm not sure if I'm on the right track with my thoughts...but anyway, I think it all comes down to the issue of liability. If something goes wrong, something gets messed up from this guys work, your house burns down, etc...you really can't do much to them, because it was your own fault for hiring an unlisensed person. Plus, some people might thank of an unlisensed person as a "handy man" and handymen don't do very good wiring, from what I've heard here. That's just my thoughts.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: licensing?

Small towns west of St. Louis need houses wired. If a license isn't required then what are you to do? As long as you're insured and you follow the NEC there's not much anyone can say to you.

Although, walking boldly into a puritan NEC website, proclaiming you don't have a license and calling yourself "Hasty", that's pretty funny!

There was a guy at my own shop that called my 2-year license a "wannabe Journeyman" license. I take a small measure of pride that I passed the same test he took, only he paid for $500 worth of class, and I studied code.

Don't get me wrong, if I could afford classes I would go. But I can't so I study the NEC and try to soak in what I hear here.

 

[midget]

Re: licensing?

Here in Oregon, we have a 2-year program for just resedential...is that similiar with what you did in Colorado, George?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: licensing?

After 2 years, you can test for a license to supervise up to 4-plexes.
After 2 more, Journeyman. Anything goes.
After 1 more, Master.

No real program, per se. Do houses for six months, you should be "able" to wire one. A year and a half later you're sick of them, and have a license that nails a foot to the floor of them!

 

[midget]

Re: licensing?

LOL Yeah, resedential seems boring, unless it's remodel, then it's more chalenging.

 

[hasty]

Re: licensing?

George,
Cant help the last name, but you can bet your yearly wages that I didnt name my Hasty Electrical.
Im the same way, I havent had the classes, but believe it or not i actually enjoy reading NEC codes.
Im very particular, almost anal, about the way my work is done. And anyone that works for me for that matter. I have gotten rid of 2 guys in the last year because they didnt seem to take pride in what they did. And if my name is on the inside of a panel I dont want to be embarresed to have it there
Jim

 

[rattus]

Re: licensing?

Good question. I am an EE, and I understand the theory and some of the practice, but that does doe give me a license to twist wire. So, I do my own work and give advice, but I will not do it for others, although I did do a simple job on a farmhouse once where there was no licensing requirement.

I knew a guy years ago who was studying for his MSEE and wanted to do contract work in new construction. He managed to take the test and get a master's license without the apprenticeship.

I find this site very entertaining and informative as well, and the variety of backgrounds of the various members makes it all the more interesting.

Now I have seen some sloppy work in new residential. In my first house, 240V was wired to the washing machine outlet, and another daisy chain was wired in a loop with no power to it. The plumbers were even worse because they ran the popoff drain into the wall but did not connect it to the outside. They did this on purpose because the wall was already closed in when they did it!

Licensed or not, dishonest tradesmen are everwhere.

[ December 12, 2004, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: rattus ]

 

[charlie]

Re: licensing?

Jim, you have had apprenticeship training with your dad. If anyone questions you training, ask how it was done in the old days when we had guilds? I want you to know that you are indeed welcome here and we would like for you to participate. I assure you that you will learn more about the trade just like the rest of us. We have fun, trade jabs, and learn from each other. Sometimes, we just play.

I assume you are required to have a bond and insurance in the counties that you normally work in, those are the requirements here where licensing is not required.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: licensing?

Originally posted by hasty:
Cant help the last name, but you can bet your yearly wages that I didnt name my Hasty Electrical.

I'm sorry, Jim. I meant no offense by that, it didn't occur to me it was your name!

I thought I was anal too, but two things have happened to me lately: a new hire to my shop who comes from a stricter background, and finding this site. I realize how much I have left to learn!

 

[hasty]

Re: licensing?

None taken George I get it all the time.
As far as insurances that was the very first thing I purchased when I first went into business.
Currently my corporation carries a million liabilty blanket. Bonding is not required here.
If you want to here something scarey I live in Branson MO you know "Little Nashville" and the CITY of Branson enforces the NEC, but the county doesnt have any codes. You dont even have a place to pull a permit. Unless your doing a commercial job, then you pull your permit through the fire dept.
So you can only imagine the hokey "electricians" you come across.

 

[goldstar]

Re: licensing?

Licensing is an important aspect of doing electrical work because there needs to be an authority (like a state Dept. of Community Affairs or Board of Electrical Examiners) that attests to the fact that you are bonded, insured and meet, at least, a minimum measure of requirements that qualify you to do the work. Without a license, anyone (even those less qualified than you) can go out and perform installations and do service work.

Here in New Jersey we are required to have, not only the name of your company on the side of the truck, but also your license # clearly displayed. In your case your sign might say :

Hasty's Electric Service
* Insured
* Bonded
* Experienced
* Up to date on NEC codes
* House wiring
* Commercial wiring

However, if you had a license :

Hasty's Electrical Service
License # 12345

would say it all.

Now, having said all of that, having a license doesn't tell the general public that you do quality work. There are a lot of electricians out there that can run circles around me but, I pride myself on doing neat, accurate and quality work. That's where the license won't help you. You'll have to sell yourself up front and do the quality work so you'll get repeat work and referrals

 

[charlie b]

Re: licensing?

Well put, goldstar. You have earned your user name on that one.

I should mention that having a Professional Engineer license is analogous. Having the ?PE? after your name ?says it all,? except that it, too, does not prove that you do quality work.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: licensing?

I'm still really surprised how much variation there is in electrical licensing laws around the country.

In Minnesota, a state-issued license is required to do electrical work (there are some limited exceptions). Any business that does electrical work must have a contractor's license, which requires bonding, insurance, and a designated master electrician (who can only work for one company as such). Electrical work must be performed for a licensed contractor by its employees, and they must each have a personal electrical license (journeyman or master), or be immediately supervised by someone holding such a license. A self-employed electrician must have a master electrician's license and a contractor's license. Under state law, all work except "minor repair work" requires a permit and inspection (again, there are some limited exceptions, mainly in industrial settings).

That being said, there is no shortage of unlicensed people doing electrical work illegally. They even advertise in the local papers. It's easy to spot them, and even easier to verify that they are illegal, as the state has a nice Web page that lists all licensed contractors. Some of them might do good work, but that's anyone's guess. Only licensed contractors can pull permits and thus schedule inspections, although a common illegal practice is to have a homesteader pull a homeowner's permit and the unlicensed person does the work. A more common illegal practice is to skip all that permit/inspection hassle and just do the work anyway. The enforcement authorities don't have the resources to track down and prosecute all these people (doing electrical work without a license is a misdemeanor here, and the courts a busy enough already). But I suspect that if some illegal wiring causes a fire (or worse), the authorities will make time to prosecute the people who did it.

Licensed contractors here are required to have their contractor name as listed on their license on both sides of their vehicles and in all advertising. License numbers are not required yet, but they soon will be on vehicles. I put my contractor's license number on both sides of my truck anyway so there's no doubt in anyone's mind that I'm not just some guy who read Big Orange's "Wiring 1-2-3" and deemed myself qualified.

I was at a dinner party last week where I met someone who needed some work done on his house. When I gave him my card, he specifically mentioned that he noticed I was licensed. That seemed to make him more comfortable with the idea of hiring me. I think it's kinda sad that I have to use my being licensed as a selling point since there are so many unlicensed people doing electrical work (ever see a dentist advertise how great a job he does, and, as a bonus, he has a license, too! ), but I guess it's a good way to help take business away from the unlicensed people.

All in all, I think that anyone who does electrical work should be licensed (or be supervised by someone who is). A license per se is no guarantee that the work will be done well, but at least someone holding a license has had to demonstrate *some* level of competence to the authorities. When someone has no license, it's anyone's guess as to how competent he may be.

 

[goldstar]

Re: licensing?

The enforcement authorities don't have the resources to track down and prosecute all these people (doing electrical work without a license

Jeff, Herein lies the problem. We (licensed electricians) have to act on this for our own preservation by turning them in. If it's illegal to do electrical work without a license in your state, then the mere fact that you take out an ad in a newspaper (as an unlicensed contractor) should make you subject to a fine. Here in NJ the initial fine is $ 1,000.00 ( a bit more than a slap on the wrist). Of course, if you don't take out a permit to do work then I guess you can do anything you want to. Why stop breaking the law at not being licensed ? But I guess that's how some breaker panels end up in shower stalls.

Usually, the attractive part of hiring someone who is not licensed infers that he/she are working cheaper than a licensed individual (probably true in every respect but for good reasons). But if their house burns down after an electrical fire caused by their improper work or if (God forbid) someone is electrocuted - how much money did they actually save ? A couple of hundred bucks ? One hell of a gamble !!! I'd rather take the $ 200.00 and bet it on a horse at Aquaduct. At least I'd have a chance of coming out a big winner.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: licensing?

I agree. We as licensed contractors can perform a public service that also helps us out at the same time. I don't think we should have to compete with unlicensed people, and neither do the authorities.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: licensing?

Keep one thing in mind.Hiring a licensed contractor does not mean that licensed electricians will be doing the work .Here in Tampa FL it is common for a contractor to hire helpers and unlicensed journeymen to wire anything.The master is not even required to ever see the job and many don't.All that happens is that the job is covered by insurance and it is inspected by AHJ.And some even do remodels with no permit.
Journeymen with cards are rare.I am not saying this is good because its not.Electrical contractors hire unlicensed electricians for the same reasons homeowners hire unlicensed electricians.
If starting monday they were required to hire at least one licensed journeyman for a job we would see a lot of jobs shut down and ads in paper show up.

 

[cigar]

Re: licensing?

As long as you stick with wiring hoses life is good.Please just dont toch commercial and industrial.I suggest you attend an approved apprenticeship program.If you dont want to be union the independent electrical Contractors have a program recognized by the Dept.of Labor.

 

[petersonra]

Re: licensing?

One of the things I hate about licensing any profession is that what happens is those in the profession run the licensing system. it seems to be oriented towards reducing entry into the profession and when bad things do happen, protecing the a$$ os those who are already licensed.

In my area the requirements to get a contractors license are very loose, and AFAIK there are no requirements for individual electricians to get any kind of license. Quite frankly I have seen no downside to this.

In areas where licensing of electricians exists, there is nothing that prevents someone with a license from engaging in electrical work he is really not competant to do. I see this all the time where guys whose main experience is pulling pipe and wire (and do a really fine job of it most likely) get involved in wiring up control systems, or doing instrument wiring and muck it up beyond belief.

I am not convinced that licensing does much to prevent shoddy work, having seen a fair amount of substandard work from IBEW carded guys. OTOH, I have seen a lot of really fine work from people who never went through an established apprentice program.

 

[peter d]

Re: licensing?

Originally posted by cigar:
As long as you stick with wiring hoses life is good.Please just dont toch commercial and industrial.

Cigar, we don't really know what Hasty's qualifications are, so how can you make that judgement? Are you suggesting that residential wiring is somehow easier and safer? :roll: