Insurance company rejects fused disconnect

[GoldDigger]

All of these pictures are of Non-Fused Disconnects.

Where are you all seeing the fuses at?
Is there even fuses in the Primary Disconnect ahead of the gutter or is it a Non-Fused Disconnect also?
The one large main disconnect would take care of the 6 movements or less rule but I guess I'm not seeing the whole picture of what's actually taking place here.:?

JAP>

Did you look at the picture in post #1?

 

[Sierrasparky]

Did you look at the picture in post #1?

how can you tell if they are fused or not?

Are those A base meters?

 

[GoldDigger]

how can you tell if they are fused or not?

Are those A base meters?

What I see is a screw base fuse socket and fuse next to each switch. What do you see?

 

[al hildenbrand]

for me the immediate question is the owner wants me to write up a report saying "looks ok to me" on my letterhead.

A little while back I was approached by a homeowner because of a similar negative report from the "Truth-In-Sale-Of-Housing" department. These "inspectors" have a long history of creating their own code and being pushed back, largely by litigation, or the threat thereof.

A particular inspector had taken the concept of a little finger being able to touch an insulated, or bare, conductor (as applied to cracked or missing device cover plates) and had extended it to anything that didn't have a dead front. A safety switch, fused or unfused, suddenly became a hazard in this department's opinion. Doubly so because the fuse might have to be replaced by a non-electrician.

Bad deal for the homeowner with his 400 Amp 240/120 Volt single phase safety switch fused service disconnect. The home also had 34 additional safety switches at motors, subpanels and heating subsystems. . . it was a big place.

The area State electrical inspector said they had no comment about a maintained electrical installation and maintained equipment installed to the Code of its original assembly. When confronted by that simple, bland statement lacking condemnation, the T.I.S.H department folded, and approved the inspection of the homeowner's safety switch "infested" house.

 

[jaggedben]

What I see is a screw base fuse socket and fuse next to each switch. What do you see?

I don't see a screw base fuse socket 'next to' anything in the photo.

What I see is a bunch of disconnects connected to a gutter in a setup that looks awfully similar to the one in my older city apartment building. Given the similarity, it's a reasonable supposition that each of the smaller switches has a screw base fuse sockets inside. Probably the bigger switch has a larger set of fuses. But that's just a supposition. The OP was a little vague about which disconnect(s) are fused.

 

[Sierrasparky]

What I see is a screw base fuse socket and fuse next to each switch. What do you see?

Really.............. You must have some really great eyesight!:happysad:

I don't see a screw base fuse socket 'next to' anything in the photo.

What I see is a bunch of disconnects connected to a gutter in a setup that looks awfully similar to the one in my older city apartment building. Given the similarity, it's a reasonable supposition that each of the smaller switches has a screw base fuse sockets inside. Probably the bigger switch has a larger set of fuses. But that's just a supposition. The OP was a little vague about which disconnect(s) are fused.

Thanks:thumbsup:

 

[GoldDigger]

Really.............. You must have some really great eyesight!:happysad:




Thanks:thumbsup:

OK, I should have zoomed in on the photo and seen that the "fuses" were meters.

 

[Sierrasparky]

OK, I should have zoomed in on the photo and seen that the "fuses" were meters.

It's been a long day and I feel that I must be in a different dimension or living under a rock.

Any how no problem. Cheers!

 

[kwired]

A little while back I was approached by a homeowner because of a similar negative report from the "Truth-In-Sale-Of-Housing" department. These "inspectors" have a long history of creating their own code and being pushed back, largely by litigation, or the threat thereof.

A particular inspector had taken the concept of a little finger being able to touch an insulated, or bare, conductor (as applied to cracked or missing device cover plates) and had extended it to anything that didn't have a dead front. A safety switch, fused or unfused, suddenly became a hazard in this department's opinion. Doubly so because the fuse might have to be replaced by a non-electrician.

Bad deal for the homeowner with his 400 Amp 240/120 Volt single phase safety switch fused service disconnect. The home also had 34 additional safety switches at motors, subpanels and heating subsystems. . . it was a big place.

The area State electrical inspector said they had no comment about a maintained electrical installation and maintained equipment installed to the Code of its original assembly. When confronted by that simple, bland statement lacking condemnation, the T.I.S.H department folded, and approved the inspection of the homeowner's safety switch "infested" house.

This is an insurance company in this case that doesn't like the installation, they still have the right to refuse coverage or raise the rate if they want to even after you tell them it met code when it was installed.

 

[jap]

This is an insurance company in this case that doesn't like the installation, they still have the right to refuse coverage or raise the rate if they want to even after you tell them it met code when it was installed.

Exactly,
It wouldn't meet code requirements today but I wouldn't pick it apart.
Actually I've got to hand it to them. it looks like it was very professionally installed at the time.
Of course the simplicity of a lot of that old stuff does.

JAP>

 

[kwired]

Exactly,
It wouldn't meet code requirements today but I wouldn't pick it apart.
Actually I've got to hand it to them. it looks like it was very professionally installed at the time.
Of course the simplicity of a lot of that old stuff does.

JAP>

I have no problem with it myself assuming the equipment is still in good condition. And yes well done for the parts we can see. If I ran into this around here it wouldn't have been piped it would have been wild NM or SE cables run everywhere and likely not very well secured.

 

[mgookin]

for me the immediate question is the owner wants me to write up a report saying "looks ok to me" on my letterhead.
Well - what is really the incentive for me to do that?
It would sure be better with new eq. in all the little ways - do some pm, bring it up to code [insul bonding bushings and check for other non conforming issues], get a green tag...
but the hardship - permits, co-ordinate with utilty estimater, costs etc... what a sticky spot.
I like the owners, I could just charge to write a letter - i dont see it being dangerous... but again- why?

Before a friend of mine died he owned a large insurance company. I would do the inspections that others could not handle, for various reasons. I probably did <20 but I had the benefit of having access to all sides of the issue, including the underwriters.

The main things insurance companies want to know with respect to electric reports:
The best guess year of construction, often available through public records.
A brief overview of the service.
A brief overview of the MDP & any subpanels and type(s) of OCPD.
A description of the wiring method(s).
A statement that it appears to have been (or not been) maintained to industry standards.
A statement that there are or are not any obvious hazards.
If any of the above was upgraded, modified, etc. the year that was done.

Feel free to fill the report full of disclaimers just like engineers do in an as-built certification. Suggested language "the following report is based on a site visit to the subject address on mm/dd/yyyy and is the result of visual, non-destructive observation of existing conditions. My name is ___________ and I am a professional ________ in the state of ____________ license # ________________. "

You can take some cube testers, VOM, etc. and do some checking and take some fancy pictures with your phone. They like that.

It's my experience that if there are fuses, they'll want breakers.
Age 50 for any electrical equipment can be a deal breaker. When we build buildings we say we are building a 50 year building. At age 50 they want a service change, most of the time.

 

[kwired]

Before a friend of mine died he owned a large insurance company. I would do the inspections that others could not handle, for various reasons. I probably did <20 but I had the benefit of having access to all sides of the issue, including the underwriters.

The main things insurance companies want to know with respect to electric reports:
The best guess year of construction, often available through public records.
A brief overview of the service.
A brief overview of the MDP & any subpanels and type(s) of OCPD.
A description of the wiring method(s).
A statement that it appears to have been (or not been) maintained to industry standards.
A statement that there are or are not any obvious hazards.
If any of the above was upgraded, modified, etc. the year that was done.

Feel free to fill the report full of disclaimers just like engineers do in an as-built certification. Suggested language "the following report is based on a site visit to the subject address on mm/dd/yyyy and is the result of visual, non-destructive observation of existing conditions. My name is ___________ and I am a professional ________ in the state of ____________ license # ________________. "

You can take some cube testers, VOM, etc. and do some checking and take some fancy pictures with your phone. They like that.

It's my experience that if there are fuses, they'll want breakers.
Age 50 for any electrical equipment can be a deal breaker. When we build buildings we say we are building a 50 year building. At age 50 they want a service change, most of the time.

I agree with some conditions on the 50 year age thing. Unlike the 50 year old items I was replacing when I first started in the trade some of those items today are still in production is why I bring this up. QO and I-Line circuit breakers is one example. Now the breaker may be in question after 50 years but the bus bar it plugs onto may not be so questionable. Some 50 year old panelboards are better built then what you might replace them with today, you just don't know what condition the internals of the breaker are in.

 

[mgookin]

I agree with some conditions on the 50 year age thing. Unlike the 50 year old items I was replacing when I first started in the trade some of those items today are still in production is why I bring this up. QO and I-Line circuit breakers is one example. Now the breaker may be in question after 50 years but the bus bar it plugs onto may not be so questionable. Some 50 year old panelboards are better built then what you might replace them with today, you just don't know what condition the internals of the breaker are in.

And if an industry professional says it's good, they'll almost always take it.

 

[texie]

old electrical installations

old electrical installations

Old electrical installations like the OP is questioning can be problematic. As many know, insurance underwriters can get skittish about older electrical systems, especially larger/commercial systems. Many older systems have been hacked to the point of being unsafe. Even if they were done properly in their day and well maintained, there comes a point where major upgrades need to be done.
Some of the larger jurisdictions have requirements for inspecting and reporting the conditions of an electrical system beyond a certain age. One in particular that I am familiar with is Miami-Dade County (FL) and it is quite onerous on an older building owner of more than 40 years. It requires a P.E. to inspect and report. It is such a big deal that I know some P.E. have made an industry out of it.
Like all regulations, it has its pluses and minuses but at least the insurance carriers have some kind of level playing field. The bad part is that these things can be very subjective and no P.E. wants to put his seal on the line if he is not real comfortable with what he inspects. I've seen some mighty big money spent to get a system to the point where the P.E. is comfortable enough to re-certify an electrical system.

 

[wyreman]

I have to go back later today but here are my photos from that day.
There's a 400a 3p main fused disco and a bunch of little 60a throws
they are all built pretty well and dont seem to be modified badly in any way.
There were a few little touches that would've been pointed out by the insp if it were done now.

The wire seems not crumbly, the throws dont look welded, the handles seems to move without pain.
If anything... I would wonder about the split bolts in the gutter, esp the neutral on the four wire

but in fact, since those wires have never moved, I'm sure they are fine with their wooden splints.

Do I want to call it "safe enough"?
you guys had some great idears
i;ll upload some more photos

how do you upload them easier than "insert image" and one at a time? thanks@!

[looks like "attach" image may work better i'll try that later]

 

[wyreman]

Before a friend of mine died he owned a large insurance company. I would do the inspections that others could not handle, for various reasons. I probably did <20 but I had the benefit of having access to all sides of the issue, including the underwriters.

The main things insurance companies want to know with respect to electric reports:
The best guess year of construction, often available through public records.
A brief overview of the service.
A brief overview of the MDP & any subpanels and type(s) of OCPD.
A description of the wiring method(s).
A statement that it appears to have been (or not been) maintained to industry standards.
A statement that there are or are not any obvious hazards.
If any of the above was upgraded, modified, etc. the year that was done.

Feel free to fill the report full of disclaimers just like engineers do in an as-built certification. Suggested language "the following report is based on a site visit to the subject address on mm/dd/yyyy and is the result of visual, non-destructive observation of existing conditions. My name is ___________ and I am a professional ________ in the state of ____________ license # ________________. "

You can take some cube testers, VOM, etc. and do some checking and take some fancy pictures with your phone. They like that.

It's my experience that if there are fuses, they'll want breakers.
Age 50 for any electrical equipment can be a deal breaker. When we build buildings we say we are building a 50 year building. At age 50 they want a service change, most of the time.

thank you for taking the time for your knowledgeable and insightful reply

 

[mgookin]

If you want to write a letter, I'd suggest using more positive language.
Instead of saying "It hasn't caught fire YET" maybe the body of the letter could be something along the lines of:

The building is supplied with a xxx/xxx volt, 3-phase service with 400 amp overcurrent protection.
Each tenant unit is supplied by a 60 amp overcurrent device.
The service to each tenant unit is labeled and identified as to which unit it serves.
The installation, workmanship and maintenance appear in proper order and condition.
Wiring insulation appears intact and in good order without any visible signs of damage or deterioration.
There are no visible signs of there ever having been any overheating, short circuits or other adverse events or conditions.
Disconnect devices were exercised and found to be in working condition.
It is my professional opinion that the subject electric service is in good working order without any obvious signs of risk to persons or property.

Charge him $100 to write the letter and tell him you'll credit the $100 back if the insurance company makes him hire you to change it out to breakers, which they very well may do.
I'd omit pictures of the fuses. Take a picture of the building from the street, a close up of the address, the service on the outside of the building, and one picture in the electric room with all the disco doors closed.

Good luck to you and your friend!

 

[jap]

It threw me off seeing the load side of each 60 amp disconnect going through the meter then to the load.
I would have thought the tap would have fed each meter 1st, then to the 60a disconnect, then to the load.

It looks as if all the taps are 10' or less, otherwise the 25' tap rule would have came into play and the #6 tap from a 400 amp feed wouldn't have been acceptable seeing as how the tap conductor would not have been 1/3rd the ampacity of the feeder.

JAP>

 

[jaggedben]

I just realized wyreman is from SF just like me. For all I know that building could have been wired by the same company as mine. Looks a little neater though.

Yes, A-base meters got wired to the load side of the disconnect, that's how it was done back the day. Everyone I've ever seen was like that.