Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

[roger]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

My wife is a broker and is watching the Antique Road show right now, so she has no idea of the reason for the question I just asked her.

Q Dear, (sweet husband talk) do you recommend a home inspector when asked?

A I give at least two to three references that the buyer can call, but stay out of suggesting or picking one. Now be quite, I can't hear the show. (sweet wife response)

Roger

[ January 03, 2005, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[wolfman56]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

IWIRE, I,ve thought this out the last 24 hr. and I've reached the conclusion that I would rather be friends with the HI's than enemys. I know HI's have their place in all this. The real issue is SAFETY. But cost is always a factor. Im thinking of sending my local HI's a note in the form of a newsletter from our company, ultimatly recommending the following idea.

Biggest safety issue is proper grounding.
If the house is about 50 years old, always defer this to the electrician. A home this old ALWAYS, ALWAYS, has issues due to years of handyman type maintenance.
If the house has been added to, or kitchen remodeled, be very concerned.

Does anyone out there have a friendly relationship with a HI, that has been good for everyone?

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

i know two home inspectors--both have very little knowledge in the electrical field and both stay clear of the electrical system other than suggesting gfi installation where necessary, panel scheduals and no exposed wiring. these were the "big picture" things they learnt in home inspector school.

like i asked before---how did we ever buy and sell homes before the inseption of the "home inspector"?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

The real problem is they might tell the buyer he needs gfci and then try to get the seller to pay for it.The code in effect at time it was built plays a major role in what to cite.While gfci are a great idea so are afci in bedrooms.Will he suggest them too ?

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

Bob, as much as I like to agree with you, I just can't totally agree on this issue.
Allow me to ask:

1.) In MA, does one have to be licensed to inspect electrical systems?

2.) If yes to #1, what are the requirements in MA to be licensed in inspecting electrical systems?

3.) If yes to #1, does the instruction in becoming a home inspector meet any such required qualifications?

So far, you're making a pretty good argument for a career change.

 

[iwire]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

Originally posted by luke warmwater:
Bob, as much as I like to agree with you, I just can't totally agree on this issue.

Hey if we all agreed this would be a boring forum, a whole bunch of "Yes" posts.

I don't think there are general answers to many of the questions as each state is different, I will stick with MA.

Originally posted by luke warmwater:
Allow me to ask:

1.) In MA, does one have to be licensed to inspect electrical systems?

I am not sure, I would say yes.

However part of the problem may be what our concept of an inspection is and what a home inspectors job is.

Home inspectors are not code inspectors, they do not certify a house is perfect or even nearly perfect.

Here is a quote from the Board of Registration of Home Inspectors in MA.

About Home Inspections

A standard home inspection is a visual examination of the physical structure and major interior systems of a residential building consisting of one to four dwelling units. An inspection can be likened to a physical exam by a physician; however, it should be clearly understood that a home inspection is not to be confused with an appraisal, a building code inspection, a guarantee of any kind, and/or an insurance policy on the condition of the property.

During an inspection, the inspector will review the readily accessible exposed portions of the structure of the home, including the roof, the attic, walls, ceilings, floors, windows, doors, basement, and foundation as well as the heating/air conditioning systems, interior plumbing and electrical systems for potential problems.

Home inspections are not intended to point out every small problem or any invisible or latent defect in a home. Most minor or cosmetic flaws, for example, should be apparent to the buyer without the aid of a professional.

Originally posted by luke warmwater:
2.) If yes to #1 what are the requirements in MA to be licensed in inspecting electrical systems?

3.) If yes to #1, does the instruction in becoming a home inspector meet any such required qualifications?

We pretty much have to licensed in MA just to go to the bathroom.

Not many HIs bring home what you do.

Bob

[ January 05, 2005, 05:00 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

Bob, I don't want you to feel that I'm bashing you or any HI, just arguing ponts.

However part of the problem may be what our concept of an inspection is and what a home inspectors job is.

That might be a play on words.
If it is a visual inspection, maybe. But IMO as soon as he plugs a tester in, it's an inspection.




A standard home inspection is a visual examination of the physical structure and major interior systems of a residential building consisting of one to four dwelling units. An inspection can be likened to a physical exam by a physician; however, it should be clearly understood that a home inspection is not to be confused with an appraisal, a building code inspection, a guarantee of any kind, and/or an insurance policy on the condition of the property.

During an inspection, the inspector will review the readily accessible exposed portions of the structure of the home, including the roof, the attic, walls, ceilings, floors, windows, doors, basement, and foundation as well as the heating/air conditioning systems, interior plumbing and electrical systems for potential problems.

Home inspections are not intended to point out every small problem or any invisible or latent defect in a home. Most minor or cosmetic flaws, for example, should be apparent to the buyer without the aid of a professional.

Even a physical exam must be performed by a licensed physician.
To me, the HI should be more like the nurse who checks your weight.
Not the doctor who looks you over.
If the weight nurse wants to listen to my chest and make recommendations, she's out of her scope.


Jokes aside Home inspectors have to be licensed I am still wary of saying home inspectors 'inspect' electrical systems. A better way to put it is they take a look at the general condition of the exposed equipment, test GFCIs etc.

You're 'in' with these guys some how, aren't you.

Not many HIs bring home what you do.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

here's a true story from someone i know in baltimare, maryland. the recently widowed, next door neighbor goes to sell her house so she can be closer to her children and her home inspector tells her she has aluminum wire in her house. she hires a contractor to change it--- the cost was over five grand! her and her husband owned this house for over thirty five years and never had the first problem with the electrical system.
i had heard about it after the fact and about the time the electrical contractor was finishing his work. she questioned the home inspector and then her realtor about this report which listed it as a code violation. the home inspector was paid through the realtor --- the realtor came back with a statement that it really wasn't a code violation but made the house "more sellable".

the fact that in ma. they need "error and admition" insurance tells me they are in an oppinionated business similar to engineers. they can get sued by what they think and not what they do?

i have only sold one house in my lifetime. and at that time the realtor asked me to purchase a joint insurance package with the person who might buy my house. the cost was about $350.00 for each party. it was to cover any problems that might arrise in the first year the house was lived in by the new owners. to me the figure of $700.00 seamed high! then i started thinking about it--i just had installed a new a.c.unit. i have never tripped a breaker since living there. i was on sewers and city water. the roof was only three years old. what could go wrong? i told them "no" write it up "as is - where is"! they told me "the insurance is a little high but it makes the property easier to sell"! at who's expense! i really felt like i was helping out the buyer also by not spending his $350.00! kind of like us selling a customer a four hundred amp service instead of a standard two hundred amp service and if he complains tell him "it'll make your house worth more money!"......

look around your house---and tell me what a home inspector could legally do that the average buyer couldn't do prior to the purchase of a home? and how the home inspector could become responsible for something he overlooked?

 

[iwire]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

Your not bashing me in the least.

How does one tell if a certain HI is a hack?

How does one tell if an electrician, doctor, pharmacist is a hack?

Buyer be ware. (I wish I knew Latin)

Here are just a few quotes from the NACHI site:

I really do not think picking a few terrible post proves a thing. I could do that here at Holt's too.

Why, if it is a Visual inspection, would a HI need, "a digital laser thermometer to check breaker connections", or "a clamp on ammeter to check current draw on an appliance"?

I agree, they don't and if you read their standards of practice they don't need those items. However someone wants to sell those items. There are always those that think a truck full of equipment shows they are an expert.

What say I send the corporate jet to pick you up and I'll meet you in the lobby of The Palace and we'll talk over lunch.

I am waiting, we can take your jet to my island.

I know HIs are here to stay here in MA, I guess you will have to lobby your state to put them out of business.

You're 'in' with these guys some how, aren't you.

Yes, I am a NACHI certified home inspector, which means noting unless I was to get a MA HI license and take a cut in pay.

Bob

 

[iwire]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

Originally posted by charlie tuna:
look around your house---and tell me what a home inspector could legally do that the average buyer couldn't do prior to the purchase of a home? and how the home inspector could become responsible for something he overlooked?

Charlie it depends on where you live, if a home inspection report is a condition of sale in this state the report can only be produced by a licensed home inspector.

They are responsible, that is why MA requires them to carry at least $250,000 in errors and omissions insurance.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

iwire,
it would be illegal for a home inspector to remove a panel cover to check current draw or to work anything "hot". the use of a temperature sensor is useless without knowing the load. so you can throw those two devices out of the truck!

i am not against "home inspectors" in general - but from what they charge compaired to what they can legally provide i really think it's a joke! i can see states and/or cities requiring this type of operation, it removes them from the picture, the "bad guy"! some cities in south florida require buildings to have "30 year check ups"! this is their way of removing older building from the tax rolls! replacing them with newer buildings thereby recieving more tax dollars. some buildings cost more to bring up to code than it is worth. but then, they become the "bad guy" who notifies the owner that he must comply with the law! if this job can be placed on others i'm sure they would go for it!

 

[iwire]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

Originally posted by charlie tuna:
iwire,
it would be illegal for a home inspector to remove a panel cover to check current draw or to work anything "hot".

Really do you have a reference for that?

First if you are self employed OSHA is not a factor.

Second opening and looking at a panel is not installing or repairing electric work.

For that matter many other trades are allowed to perform electric work.

HVAC and oil burner techs are allowed to remove, replace, troubleshoot on the load side of the disconnect for the equipment they service, at least here in MA.

Originally posted by charlie tuna:
the use of a temperature sensor is useless without knowing the load. so you can throw those two devices out of the truck!

Again that depends on what you are looking for, we are talking residential panels if anything shows much above ambient temp. it is unusual.

But I agree that for the most part those items are a waste of money for an HI. the back of the hand on the front of a closed panel would be just as good for what they are looking for.

I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to tax roles, bad guys, etc.

I do not know what you guys want to happen?

HIs are here, and they are not going anywhere, IMO a lot of this come down to 'inter trade jealousy'.

If we are really concerned with safety we should be happy HIs find dangerous installations at a time when the property owner has little choice but to repair it.

The repairs will need to be done by a licensed / qualified electrician.

Bob

 

[wolfman56]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

IWIRE,
HI's are a needed part of society, they do a good service. However as you said,

If we are really concerned with safety we should be happy HIs find dangerous installations at a time when the property owner has little choice but to repair it.

What else in a home is MORE DANGEROUS, than the electric. Can a leak in the roof kill someone. The problem I opened this topic with could of killed someone.
The problem I see is that when a HI looks in the panel, then runs around with the plug checker, it leaves the homeowner with A FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY. He assumes that the HI will find ANY problems.
How many HI's make it clear that they know almost nothing about electric, and therefore should not trust their inspection?
Yes I know, all the clauses in the HI contract. But really, the bottom line is, people THINK that the HI is TRAINED and TESTED in electric as well as the rest and trust him.
The best thing to do is at bare minimum to always recommend an electrician if the home is over 45 yrs. old or has been altered.
Rick

 

[iwire]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

Rick what is your solution then?

Require licensed contractors to perform inspections in each category?

I am not being a wise guy, I am asking a real question.

IMO something is better than nothing, and I believe the majority of the time the HIs can do the job.

I have stated many times in this thread that I know mistakes are made.

There is no way we can say an electrician will not overlook something also.

Charlie when he was speaking as a home owner complained about the cost.

HIs are the only way IMO to keep the cost reasonable.

And really I am not a paid lobbyist for the HI industry.

 

[wolfman56]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

IWIRE,

Rick what is your solution then?

Require licensed contractors to perform inspections in each category?

Not At all, as Charlie said it would be cost prohibative.
I guess my thought would be to only single out the electric. Is there any part of a home a HI would inspect that is more of a danger potential?

Really, were just kicken ideas around. We both know nothing's going to change. I personally like to form my opinions based on actual statistics. I admit, I've seen none on the subject.

RICK

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

Look at it this way,should the HI think he found a violation and suggest an electrician and there was no problem he just cost the home buyer money because of his mistake.Will he pick up that bill ?
Other way to look at it is the HI misses some serious problems and charges the custer for an uneducated inspection.And the customer ends up paying for repairs he did not count on.
If i pay for an inspection i exspect it to be accurate.Thousands of dollars can ride on his missing something.They are trying to do a job they are not qualified to be doing.We all have some men in our companies that we know could not perform a good inspection but we pay them to be electricians.There is no cheap way out to get quality inspections.Either hire a real journeyman that has training in this area or rely on a guy that probably knows the basics.If we go to a doctor for a physical and all he does is check weight,blood preasure and a few other quick things do we walk away thinking we are in fine health ? Or do we spend a few hundred and have a lot of tests run on blood and urine.It's up to the buyer and like everything in life you get what you pay for.
HI may be around but weather they stay depends on how worth while they are.Will they offer a warranty for some reasonable price?Maybe just to cover things they missed that were defective at the time of sale.

 

[iwire]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

Originally posted by wolfman56:
Is there any part of a home a HI would inspect that is more of a danger potential?

I guess I am missing the danger potential.

The majority of complaints against HIs that I have seen are like Charlie's story of aluminum wire, HIs reporting things that are not issues.

A mistake like that is not dangerous and you can recover money spent because of a mistake like that.

As to items missed, they would have been missed if an HI was not hired at all. This again goes to my belief something is better than nothing.

I either have to shut up on this or start getting paid by the HI industry.

 

[iwire]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Look at it this way,should the HI think he found a violation and suggest an electrician and there was no problem he just cost the home buyer money because of his mistake.Will he pick up that bill ?

If you go after them for it yes, or they can lose their license in this state.

 

[roger]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

Jim,

HI may be around but weather they stay depends on how worth while they are.

isn't this already an established industry that has been, and will be, around for a long time to come?

Could it be you are actually envious of them making money (may even be more than you) with the FL Realtors (in your case) for a profession that has some indirect influence over your profession that you are supposedly the expert in?

Roger

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: Home Inspectors inspecting electric!

the ahj should be the only one judging code violations in this case--this removes the conflict of interests between home inspectors or electrical contractors and gives the new homeowner an educated assumption of his new home's electrical system!