Cutting open walls?

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midget

Senior Member
Well, I was working on troubleshooting some issue this lady was having the other day, and I was just not getting anywhere...there was power to everything else on the circuit...just not the receptacle and switch in the 2-gang box, which I believed to be the end of the circuit...how long do you guys troubleshoot somethign before you cut the wall open to see what's going on? The guy was syaing there might have been a wire that got cut from when all this new stuff was put in. Then, when you decide to cut open a wall, or an opening for a box, etc...how do you go about it? How do you make sure you're not hitting wires, pipes, etc? Sawzall, utility knife, what your choice of weapon to make your cuts? This is sheetrock we're talking about...but woudl it be different, if the wall surface was different? Do you repair the wall yourself when you're done, or call a sheetrock/texture guy?

Plus there was about 3 j-boxes just in the basement...in the cieling...who puts them in the cieline? LOL they are really noticeable up there. :) I didn't charge them for the troubleshooting, though, since I didn't get anywhere. People shouldn't charge someoen if they didn't accomplish anything, right? :p
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Cutting open walls?

This is where I go out to the truck and bring in the toner. From my truck I choose between the Amprobe Open Tracer or a simple telephone line toner.

Hook it up, it injects a signal, turning the wire into an antenna, and I "look" for the signal with a hand held receiver.

Most of the time the wall never is openned.
 

midget

Senior Member
Re: Cutting open walls?

Yeah, I figured if I had a tracer of some sort, I could find a break...or at least have a better idea if there was just no wire bringing power down there.
 

jeff43222

Senior Member
Re: Cutting open walls?

Originally posted by midget:
Well, I was working on troubleshooting some issue this lady was having the other day, and I was just not getting anywhere...there was power to everything else on the circuit...just not the receptacle and switch in the 2-gang box, which I believed to be the end of the circuit...how long do you guys troubleshoot somethign before you cut the wall open to see what's going on? The guy was syaing there might have been a wire that got cut from when all this new stuff was put in. Then, when you decide to cut open a wall, or an opening for a box, etc...how do you go about it? How do you make sure you're not hitting wires, pipes, etc? Sawzall, utility knife, what your choice of weapon to make your cuts? This is sheetrock we're talking about...but woudl it be different, if the wall surface was different? Do you repair the wall yourself when you're done, or call a sheetrock/texture guy?

In my experience, people are very reluctant to have their walls cut open. Most of my clients live in houses built in the 1920s and 1930s, and in those days the walls were finished with plaster on wood lath. Often there are plaster archways or textured surfaces, too. Patching such surfaces to the satisfaction of the client is not easy, which is why I avoid it as much as possible.

Sometimes you don't have much choice, though. In these cases, it's often more trouble than it's worth to try to trace a bad connection that's buried in the walls somewhere, so I just cut the connection at the nearest convenient existing opening and run new wires.

You'll still have to do some wall opening, though. Sawzalls are nice for demolition work, but they are a bit crude for something like this. Drywall is easy to open up cleanly just using a jigsaw, but plaster on lath is much more problematic. Plaster is brittle (cracks easily), and lath will rattle back and forth (breaking up the plaster) once one of the support ends of the lath gets cut. A rotary tool (like RotoZip) solves the rattling lath problem, but they rotate at a minimum of 15,000 RPM and take a while to learn how to control precisely without using a guide.

In situations like you describe (on a plaster/lath wall), I like to score the outline of the new opening with a utility knife and use a cold chisel to remove the plaster, leaving the lath exposed. Then I carefully use a jigsaw (very slow speed) to finish cutting the lath to make the opening. It's more time-consuming this way, but it results in a good, clean opening that is much easier to patch. I like to leave as much of the lath in as possible, as it can serve as a good support for a drywall patch. I've found that 3/8" drywall on top of lath often lines up well with the existing plaster surface of the wall. Then there's the taping and mudding process. I think the drywall and tape & mud guys work for a lot less than licensed electricians, though, so it's probably better to let the homeowner hire that out after the electrical work is done.

Plus there was about 3 j-boxes just in the basement...in the cieling...who puts them in the cieline? LOL they are really noticeable up there. :) I didn't charge them for the troubleshooting, though, since I didn't get anywhere. People shouldn't charge someoen if they didn't accomplish anything, right? :p
There's no shame in walking away from a job that you feel is over your head. It's sure better than screwing it up. One trick I like to use when I have to run new wiring inside finished walls is to cut an access hole in the wall near the floor so I can pull the wire through, then turn the hole into a new receptacle after all the wiring is in place. You thus avoid having to patch anything, and the client gets an extra receptacle. Any chance your dead two-gang switch/receptacle could be fed with new wires from below? Perhaps you could just put a new receptacle directly below it near the floor?

I also don't charge people if I didn't really do anything for them. I had a call a couple weeks ago where I found crispy wires inside a luminaire box. I quoted her a very reasonable rate for a new fixture, new wiring, and new hole in the ceiling, but she couldn't afford it. I still clipped the crispy wires at the junction box because I felt they were a fire hazard. She insisted on paying me, though.
 

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Cutting open walls?

One easy trick is to use ohm meter from ground of a working device to the ground of dead device,if open chances are good there is no wire.Use a piece of any kind of wire to exstend test lead.It is helpfull to ask if it ever worked.If it did then chances are you have bad connections.
 

midget

Senior Member
Re: Cutting open walls?

No, there's really nothing near buy to pull from...except that j-box, and I don't really like that idea.

Yeah, I asked them lots of questions...about the work that was done before, the J-boxes, etc...and aparently it worked *before* the previous work was done.
 

apauling

Senior Member
Re: Cutting open walls?

old work in plaster is not for the faint of heart.

on sheetrock, if you have a paint match that is acceptable to owner, or owner accepts painting, if more than new outlet hole, or pulling hole required, I have used a hole saw with 4" cut. To patch, back the hole with two pieces of wood slipped in and sheetrock screwed on both sides (or one wide piece) and then screw original back in. Trim all loose material, cracked paint, sand lightly, use lightweight non-shrinking mud, and paint with a matching roller.

The above is for flat, texture takes some finess to fill seams tio right texture. used to be some shheetrock texture tools for this. If you do a lot, you get good at it if you want to. Some guys don't seem to care.

You are learning well if you will walk away from something over your head.

When I was doing new houses, with back-to-back-to-back bedrooms, i would flip outlet sides so that all of the plugs in one room were not on the same circuit. I disliked the idea of all the available power in a room disappearing with a circuit problem. Owners less prone to do risky fixes when some power available. Give them time to call electrician.

Did you circuit test to see if there is more than one in the area?

paul :)
 

clayton

Member
Re: Cutting open walls?

My brother in law is a very experienced Plasterer(? sp? It is a really really good thing,
he can patch just about anything and match the textures to perfection. (he's very picky in the way that his plaster looks)

It's nice to have that in the family.
 

midget

Senior Member
Re: Cutting open walls?

Did I test to see if there was more then 1 circuit in there? Well, beyond the extent of Testing the receptacles and flipping some breakers, no...but I'm thinking there's 2 circuits in the room. One looks like original (the one that doesn't work) and the other is an addon w/ some wire mold/conduit. I didn't really look into it much more than that, because I figured someeon was going to have to fish a new wire in, and I dind't want that to be me--I just don't feel like I have enough experience at the moment. But I asked to have them call me back when they got someone to do it, just so I could learn from that person's experience. :)
 

highkvoltage

Senior Member
Re: Cutting open walls?

midget. Find the last device working and the first device not working. Locate where they are in the basement. Drill up from there and reinstall new wire between them. Use fish stix if possoble or drop a string with a small nut on it throught the box opening and retrive it with a fish tape from the basement. This way no walls are tore up. I also like the methods mentioned by the others a toner or an ohm meter, both will do the job. I prefer the toner.
 

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Cutting open walls?

This sounds like a fairly easy service call.Your better off not taking service calls if you can't do all of them.Long term your damaging your own name.Why would they call you back next time or refer you to anyone.Stick to new wiring untill your able to handle what ever comes your way.Please don't take this personally but just as advice.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Cutting open walls?

Midget said:
and aparently it worked *before* the previous work was done.
That is a critical piece of information. Who did the work, what were they trying to accomplish?

I agree with everyone else, chopping is the last resort. Cutting holes to see what's up is the ultimate last resort. You'll never see anything helpful.

Highkvoltage is right--be sure to peek in on the working boxes, because a lot of times the problem lies in the last box in the circuit that shows no problem. I'd bet a quarter that if you put a toner on the first non-working box, trace the wires back the wire is probably there, but not hooked up.

The interesting aspect of your dilemma is the old stuff doesn't work, and the new stuff does. That is weird.

Are the junction boxes hot? Do all three have something in them, or were they used a fish points, you reckon? :)

[ December 27, 2004, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Cutting open walls?

Knowing if it ever worked is the first question.Suspect leftout wire if it stoped at same time of remodel.Also try it with all other switches in house on.Sometimes its just a miss splice.I would verify first if the ground made it to the dead outlet and then the neutral.
 

midget

Senior Member
Re: Cutting open walls?

Originally posted by highkvoltage:
midget. Find the last device working and the first device not working. Locate where they are in the basement. Drill up from there and reinstall new wire between them. Use fish stix if possoble or drop a string with a small nut on it throught the box opening and retrive it with a fish tape from the basement. This way no walls are tore up. I also like the methods mentioned by the others a toner or an ohm meter, both will do the job. I prefer the toner.
It's in the basement...and it's all sheetrocked.

Jim, I'm well aware of the fact this should have been an easy service call...*but* I don't have any way to trace out the wires to see if there was a break, or just no wire. And I really didn't want to atempt fishing a new wire in there since the j-boxes were rather full looking already, and I dont' have much experience fishing stuff, yet. I was kinda pissed that I had to tell them I couldn't find a solution to their problem, but I figured it better to just tell them I was unsure of the problem, and they respected that.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Cutting open walls?

Before the next event, keep an eye out at La Casa de Anaranjado for a $40 LAN Tracker. That's Home Depot, by the way. Anyway, I bought the red and black $40 wire hound from Home Depot, and it seems as accurate to me as any of the more expensive ones. For me, I use it fairly infrequently, but it's small, effective and cheap. And you will have more success with these kinds of calls if you have one in your bag of tricks.

Jim may be gruff but he has a point. You will get better at this with more experience. Just keep pluggin'! :)
 

midget

Senior Member
Re: Cutting open walls?

I know he has a point. :) But they wolda been more pissed off if I just started doing random things and pulling wires from random places to make it work. :)
 

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Cutting open walls?

I am sorry if i worded that poorly.In 22 years of wiring i only walked away once and it too was over 2 dead receptacles that apparantly never worked on a home a few years old.Wasn't untill they needed it for an x mas tree that it was discovered.I needed to get behind a built in entertainment center that had covered up receptacles that most likely fed the dead ones.Spent 2 hours and my boss said to get out of Dodge,since this was not a house we wired and it would only pay $75 to fix it.Seemed cheaper to walk away than bring a helper and spend 3 hour to move a huge entertainment center.I looked for any easy ways out but just wasnt possible.
 

midget

Senior Member
Re: Cutting open walls?

I know what you were getting at, Jim...I only walked away because of lack of experience--it probably isn't going to be a hard fix once they get someone in there, especially if they get the guy that did it in the fist place...because he'll probably remember if he cut any wires, or missed a splice, or forgot to run power to it to begin with. Nonetheless, it was good experience, and I wouldn't have changed the way I handled it at all. Rather you agree with the way I did it, or not, I don't really care. It's nice to get everyone's input, and learn from the experience. :)
 

clayton

Member
Re: Cutting open walls?

George, (off the topic)
Do you speak Spanish?
if you do, do you find that it comes in handy
with your work. Like with fellow construction workers or home owners?

I've been thinking of advertising some in Spanish to get at a larger clientele base which in my area is largely overlooked
 

highkvoltage

Senior Member
Re: Cutting open walls?

midget. Youy are correct and walk away. It is apparent that you really have no idea. You will learn over time and nothing can replace experience. We were all there once. But there is something you are over looking and I am sure an ohm meter , some time and a piece of wire would cure your problem but I can not hold your hand though the process with this keyboard. You'll get there just be patient.
 
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