I was wondering what you guys are using to do your "as builts", "shop drawings" or whatever you want to call them. I have looked into autocad lt, but it seems a little overkill just to go back and red line a drawing. I have been biding a lot of work that specs we turn in our red lines on CD, and what to be prepared in case we get them.
as-builts, shop drawings what software?
- Thread starter chrsb
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petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: as-builts, shop drawings what software?
Why not just redline them and send them back.
No reason for you to take it on yourself to update someone else's draiwngs withthe filed changes.
Why not just redline them and send them back.
No reason for you to take it on yourself to update someone else's draiwngs withthe filed changes.
Re: as-builts, shop drawings what software?
That is what we used to do, now there are alot of specs that call for the EC to do it in the "electronic" format. I can not remember the exact wording, but it is basicly saying that I will turn in a electronic version and they will approve them and send me a copy of the "new" stamped drawings.
Re: as-builts, shop drawings what software?
It is what we do for commercial jobs, we all know that we don't always follow the prints 100% when it comes to circuits. I try to group them in the same area. Some engineers even want us to draw where the conduit runs are, mostly underground stuff, but some want all the major runs shown on the prints when we are done. There are diffrent terms used for diffrent drawings, some call them shop drawings, as builts, working drawings, red lines they are all basicly what really happened.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: as-builts, shop drawings what software?
Thats somewhat unusual. Usually the guys doing the drawings are real nervous about someone else changing them.
Having said that, there are a couple of things you can do.
1. Autocad Voloview allows you to "markup" an Autocad drawing freehand. They would still have to update the orignal files.
2. If they give you the drawings in a format you can use, Autocad Lt is quite could at this kind of stuff. HOWEVER, often there are attributes and information the originators use that you can only modify with the original software package.
3. You could always mark the drawings up with red and green markers and than have them scanned and send them the scan files.
I guess it depends on just what they expect.
Thats somewhat unusual. Usually the guys doing the drawings are real nervous about someone else changing them.
Having said that, there are a couple of things you can do.
1. Autocad Voloview allows you to "markup" an Autocad drawing freehand. They would still have to update the orignal files.
2. If they give you the drawings in a format you can use, Autocad Lt is quite could at this kind of stuff. HOWEVER, often there are attributes and information the originators use that you can only modify with the original software package.
3. You could always mark the drawings up with red and green markers and than have them scanned and send them the scan files.
I guess it depends on just what they expect.
Re: as-builts, shop drawings what software?
It all depends what format the electronic drawings are they will be giving to you of the original design.
I've been down this road before.
Sometimes when they spec that you need to submit coordination drawings and asbuit drawings on cad the will give you the original files so you do not have to redraw the building and all of the electrical from scratch.
Sometimes when they spec that you need to submit coordination drawings and asbuit drawings on cad the will NOT give out the files. They expect you to redraw the building and all of the electrical systems.
Don't expect it to be easy to open the file IF they send you anything.
I have gotten corupt files, drawings with out the building, just the electrical layers, missing xrefs (files linked to the electrical drawings such as building outlines,)missing fonts, scale problems, password problems, sometimes you will even get an older version of the drawing.
To do electronic asbuilts that depend on other peoples work will take many hours of frustrating work to get something they will accept.
Tim
It all depends what format the electronic drawings are they will be giving to you of the original design.
I've been down this road before.
Sometimes when they spec that you need to submit coordination drawings and asbuit drawings on cad the will give you the original files so you do not have to redraw the building and all of the electrical from scratch.
Sometimes when they spec that you need to submit coordination drawings and asbuit drawings on cad the will NOT give out the files. They expect you to redraw the building and all of the electrical systems.
Don't expect it to be easy to open the file IF they send you anything.
I have gotten corupt files, drawings with out the building, just the electrical layers, missing xrefs (files linked to the electrical drawings such as building outlines,)missing fonts, scale problems, password problems, sometimes you will even get an older version of the drawing.
To do electronic asbuilts that depend on other peoples work will take many hours of frustrating work to get something they will accept.
Tim
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Re: as-builts, shop drawings what software?
I only ran into this once, and they provided the .DXF file for me to mark up. I marked it up, saved it, and handed it back in.
I only ran into this once, and they provided the .DXF file for me to mark up. I marked it up, saved it, and handed it back in.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: as-builts, shop drawings what software?
From the other side of this, I really don't want the EC updating the cad files. I don't understand why they are doing this UNLESS they ran out of money and stuck this in the EC contract, hoping the EC would do it or pay someone else to do it - possibly the people who did the drawings in the first place.
From the other side of this, I really don't want the EC updating the cad files. I don't understand why they are doing this UNLESS they ran out of money and stuck this in the EC contract, hoping the EC would do it or pay someone else to do it - possibly the people who did the drawings in the first place.
Re: as-builts, shop drawings what software?
Here is the exact wording from the project manual-
" Layout shop drawings shall show building floor plans to scale and shall include the lightingsystem, all details of electrical construction, routing of conduits, wiring, circuiting and related information necessary for the installation and future maintenance of the electrical wiring systems"
" Electrinic copies of the electrical bid set of drawings and as referredto as the contract documents will be furnished for this purpose. After the layout shop drawings are reviewed, the copies will be stamped and returned"
Here is the exact wording from the project manual-
" Layout shop drawings shall show building floor plans to scale and shall include the lightingsystem, all details of electrical construction, routing of conduits, wiring, circuiting and related information necessary for the installation and future maintenance of the electrical wiring systems"
" Electrinic copies of the electrical bid set of drawings and as referredto as the contract documents will be furnished for this purpose. After the layout shop drawings are reviewed, the copies will be stamped and returned"
Re: as-builts, shop drawings what software?
chrsb,
It is not as-builts they are wanting from you it's real shop drawings IE: They want you to draw in detail how and where you are going to install the electrical system. You have to turn in in for their approval before you begin installing or install at your own risk. This is very common these days and you should plan on doing it in AutoCAD and, depending on the size of the job, have a detailer working on them for a while. I have done this on many jobs both jobs I have run and for other Forman. Some jobs will also include a coordination effort between trades where everyone must sine off before submitting there individual drawings for approval.
These drawings can generally be re submitted as as-builts as long as it was installed as drawn or make the necessary changes and submit them.
The tin knockers have done these for years to fabricate their ductwork. It's becoming more common place in the other sub trades now.
peter,
The reason they should not be labeled as builts is say your "As-Builts" said a particular receptacle circuit is feed from panel x circuit 9. In reality the Foreman put it on 11 and didn't mark up the drawings. Now Mr. maintenance man looks at the as builts ans sees circuit 9. He proceeds to turn off circuit 9 and as he starts to work on the circuit gets electrocuted. You can now be hauled into court because you definitively said it was circuit 9. If you labeled them "record drawings" they are considered as accurate as you can recall. As I understand it the scenario I just described is an actual case. I'm not sure how the fact he did not test the circuit first played into the case.
chrsb,
It is not as-builts they are wanting from you it's real shop drawings IE: They want you to draw in detail how and where you are going to install the electrical system. You have to turn in in for their approval before you begin installing or install at your own risk. This is very common these days and you should plan on doing it in AutoCAD and, depending on the size of the job, have a detailer working on them for a while. I have done this on many jobs both jobs I have run and for other Forman. Some jobs will also include a coordination effort between trades where everyone must sine off before submitting there individual drawings for approval.
These drawings can generally be re submitted as as-builts as long as it was installed as drawn or make the necessary changes and submit them.
The tin knockers have done these for years to fabricate their ductwork. It's becoming more common place in the other sub trades now.
peter,
The reason they should not be labeled as builts is say your "As-Builts" said a particular receptacle circuit is feed from panel x circuit 9. In reality the Foreman put it on 11 and didn't mark up the drawings. Now Mr. maintenance man looks at the as builts ans sees circuit 9. He proceeds to turn off circuit 9 and as he starts to work on the circuit gets electrocuted. You can now be hauled into court because you definitively said it was circuit 9. If you labeled them "record drawings" they are considered as accurate as you can recall. As I understand it the scenario I just described is an actual case. I'm not sure how the fact he did not test the circuit first played into the case.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: as-builts, shop drawings what software?
I really think that calling 'as builts', 'record drawings' would have little impact in a court of law. It would take a pretty dumb jury not to see through this. Besides as professional electricians why wouldn't they be accurate?
Our specs always ask for 'as built' drawings which will show any deviation from the original engineers' contract drawings. Depending on the spec they may be a hand marked up field drawing or a new CAD drawing, whichever they've asked for.
I really think that calling 'as builts', 'record drawings' would have little impact in a court of law. It would take a pretty dumb jury not to see through this. Besides as professional electricians why wouldn't they be accurate?
Our specs always ask for 'as built' drawings which will show any deviation from the original engineers' contract drawings. Depending on the spec they may be a hand marked up field drawing or a new CAD drawing, whichever they've asked for.
kentirwin
Senior Member
- Location
- Norfolk, VA
Re: as-builts, shop drawings what software?
I believe you're going to find that AutoCad is just about the standard of the industry. I have AutoCad Lt 2004 and get along just fine. But beware the fact that the AutoCad folks love to come out with updated versions (for a price, of course). Typically someone using something other that the latest version cannot read drawings saved in the newer version unless the user of the newest version saves it in the old format. There's also something called Intellicad available for download. It claims 100% AutoCad compatibility. The free download is functional. You can purchase the full version for much less than AutoCad. Just do a keyword search for "Intellicad" and you'll find it.
I believe you're going to find that AutoCad is just about the standard of the industry. I have AutoCad Lt 2004 and get along just fine. But beware the fact that the AutoCad folks love to come out with updated versions (for a price, of course). Typically someone using something other that the latest version cannot read drawings saved in the newer version unless the user of the newest version saves it in the old format. There's also something called Intellicad available for download. It claims 100% AutoCad compatibility. The free download is functional. You can purchase the full version for much less than AutoCad. Just do a keyword search for "Intellicad" and you'll find it.
Re: as-builts, shop drawings what software?
Beware using AutoCad LT.
If you are doing coordination drawings with an HVAC contractor, you might find that they draw the duct work in 3D. This is so they can download tothe fab shop for fabraction of the duct work.
AutoCad LT does not support 3D. Your drawings will not show all of the items in the duct work dawings.
You can only get this 3D compatibility with the full blown version of AutoCad. ~$3500.00
There is always WAREZ.
Beware using AutoCad LT.
If you are doing coordination drawings with an HVAC contractor, you might find that they draw the duct work in 3D. This is so they can download tothe fab shop for fabraction of the duct work.
AutoCad LT does not support 3D. Your drawings will not show all of the items in the duct work dawings.
You can only get this 3D compatibility with the full blown version of AutoCad. ~$3500.00
There is always WAREZ.
scott thompson
Senior Member
- Location
- Anaheim, California
Re: as-builts, shop drawings what software?
I have been producing As-Builts, or the more preferred term "Record Drawings", via CAD packages, for many, many, many-many-many years!
In fact, the last "Professional" Drawing (Plan) I drew Mechanically (by hand...i.e: Pencils, T-Square, Scales, Triangles and Stencil Kits), was in like 1994! And that was because the project was small, and someone already had an "E" size templated base plan copy (Blackline copy) - so no setup needed!
If you (the original poster of this topic) plan to go the CAD route for Record Drawings, the first issue to overcome will be getting a usable base plan... from someone...sometime before you reach retirement age!
Architects are the ones I get base plans + others from.
(base plan = the "Raw" layout per floors - with only the walls shown).
The Base Plan(s) will normally be OK - provided they saved it as a compatible file / version type!
Since many Architectural firms use Microstation, they usually send me drawing files with some type of an issue (sent as a Microstation file format, etc.). A few faxes, e-mail messages or just Telephone calls, and things get resolved.
The real fun is involved with Elevations, or layered drawings showing the RCP (Reflected Ceiling Plan), Furniture Layers, and similar "A" Sheet stuff.
From their 3-D Rendering of the drawings, each drawing file ends up with about 150 layers!
Other fun stuff includes non-continuous lines, embedded Xrefs, unfindable shape fonts, missing Xref'ed files, and the most annoying: Scaling Issues (Drawn dimensions are smaller/bigger than the actual building's dimensions!).
It takes quite a lot of learning, when making the jump from Mechanical / Hard-Copy type drafting, to any CAD Package. Took me for ever! But once you do grasp it, and get the "feel" for it, you will never go back to Hard-Copy work again!
I know you weren't planning to become a full-fledged CAD Operator, only need to mark up for As-Builts, but nevertheless, give it a try sometime.
As per the markups on this project, how about submitting a cleanly marked up set of "E" sheets to the Electrical Engineer / Architect - and let them do the CAD work?
If you can do this, great - other option would be to have someone who is a CAD Drafter, do the CAD work + save marked up drawing files to CD-Rs, then submit as required.
I perform this work for many ECs and a few GCs.
Depending on the complexity of the job, I will charge between $250 and $1,000.
A little history / comments:
Have seen many times where Contract Documents request As-Builts compiled in and submitted as, a certain CAD file format. The most common being AutoCAD (many still request AutoCAD R14 version drawing file compatible saves).
Seen this in Project Manuals (in Generals and Division 16), along with the General Notes and Specific Notes of Plan Sets.
A few have included Adobe Acrobat ".PDF" format as an alternate submission - others have requested .PDFs as an additional save type! (save drawings as ".DWG" AND ".PDF"!)
Have many, many, many-many-many As-Built sets floating around Southern California - saved as ".DWG" and Plotted (AKA "Printed").
Most are inside of Bank Branches, Loan Centers, Fic. Corporate Campuses and Admin Centers, but maybe 20% (probably a good 120 sets) exist outside of the Banking Realm, in places like Television Center (Hollywood), Dentists' Offices, Machine Shops, and other Commercial / Industrial locations.
Contact me if you have any questions / comments regarding CAD Packages, via either P.M. or E-mail.
My address is:
setelectric at pacbell dot net
FYI: Here's some other stuff you may do with a CAD Package (click on a link to view):
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000078.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000067.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000066.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000065.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000072.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000070.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000054.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000053.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000052.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000051.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000050.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000049.html
Scott35
I have been producing As-Builts, or the more preferred term "Record Drawings", via CAD packages, for many, many, many-many-many years!
In fact, the last "Professional" Drawing (Plan) I drew Mechanically (by hand...i.e: Pencils, T-Square, Scales, Triangles and Stencil Kits), was in like 1994! And that was because the project was small, and someone already had an "E" size templated base plan copy (Blackline copy) - so no setup needed!
If you (the original poster of this topic) plan to go the CAD route for Record Drawings, the first issue to overcome will be getting a usable base plan... from someone...sometime before you reach retirement age!
Architects are the ones I get base plans + others from.
(base plan = the "Raw" layout per floors - with only the walls shown).
The Base Plan(s) will normally be OK - provided they saved it as a compatible file / version type!
Since many Architectural firms use Microstation, they usually send me drawing files with some type of an issue (sent as a Microstation file format, etc.). A few faxes, e-mail messages or just Telephone calls, and things get resolved.
The real fun is involved with Elevations, or layered drawings showing the RCP (Reflected Ceiling Plan), Furniture Layers, and similar "A" Sheet stuff.
From their 3-D Rendering of the drawings, each drawing file ends up with about 150 layers!
Other fun stuff includes non-continuous lines, embedded Xrefs, unfindable shape fonts, missing Xref'ed files, and the most annoying: Scaling Issues (Drawn dimensions are smaller/bigger than the actual building's dimensions!).
It takes quite a lot of learning, when making the jump from Mechanical / Hard-Copy type drafting, to any CAD Package. Took me for ever! But once you do grasp it, and get the "feel" for it, you will never go back to Hard-Copy work again!
I know you weren't planning to become a full-fledged CAD Operator, only need to mark up for As-Builts, but nevertheless, give it a try sometime.
As per the markups on this project, how about submitting a cleanly marked up set of "E" sheets to the Electrical Engineer / Architect - and let them do the CAD work?
If you can do this, great - other option would be to have someone who is a CAD Drafter, do the CAD work + save marked up drawing files to CD-Rs, then submit as required.
I perform this work for many ECs and a few GCs.
Depending on the complexity of the job, I will charge between $250 and $1,000.
A little history / comments:
Have seen many times where Contract Documents request As-Builts compiled in and submitted as, a certain CAD file format. The most common being AutoCAD (many still request AutoCAD R14 version drawing file compatible saves).
Seen this in Project Manuals (in Generals and Division 16), along with the General Notes and Specific Notes of Plan Sets.
A few have included Adobe Acrobat ".PDF" format as an alternate submission - others have requested .PDFs as an additional save type! (save drawings as ".DWG" AND ".PDF"!)
Have many, many, many-many-many As-Built sets floating around Southern California - saved as ".DWG" and Plotted (AKA "Printed").
Most are inside of Bank Branches, Loan Centers, Fic. Corporate Campuses and Admin Centers, but maybe 20% (probably a good 120 sets) exist outside of the Banking Realm, in places like Television Center (Hollywood), Dentists' Offices, Machine Shops, and other Commercial / Industrial locations.
Contact me if you have any questions / comments regarding CAD Packages, via either P.M. or E-mail.
My address is:
setelectric at pacbell dot net
FYI: Here's some other stuff you may do with a CAD Package (click on a link to view):
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000078.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000067.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000066.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000065.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000072.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000070.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000054.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000053.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000052.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000051.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000050.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000049.html
Scott35
jrdsg
Senior Member
- Location
- Vancouver, Canada
Re: as-builts, shop drawings what software?
we use autocad for this purpose. it is sometimes difficult to get cad copies of the drawings, but we have the advantage of generally working directly for the owner, who has more leverage with the architect/designer.
other software, MS Visio for example, is able to import CAD files and use them as backgrounds on which you can add your notations and details. visio is easier to learn than autocad, but not as powerful.
we use autocad for this purpose. it is sometimes difficult to get cad copies of the drawings, but we have the advantage of generally working directly for the owner, who has more leverage with the architect/designer.
other software, MS Visio for example, is able to import CAD files and use them as backgrounds on which you can add your notations and details. visio is easier to learn than autocad, but not as powerful.
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