are we "electrocuting" marine life

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sam ford

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--from a recent post on electric transmission cables on the seabed(as reported below) i present this that you might forward to those of knowledge and interest.
north america generates ac power at 60 cycles per second whereas europe and others use 50 cycles per second as a time base.due to the phase / out of sync difference it would make it possible at times
to have north america on a positive maximum and europe on a negative maximum which would create a voltage difference between systems of 120 volts and all in between.added to this difference would be all manner of surges/spikes/hi frequency transients common on industrial power lines.sometimes for a microsecond values of thousands of volts!
what comes from the generators into some ac loads goes out back to the generating station to complete the circuit.it is not uncommon for the return path to be through ground-mother earth!.this site covers this topic very thoroughly http://www.mikeholt.com/news/archive/html/17/Ground_Currents_09-18-2002.htm
as current takes the path of least resistance or divides through a" path "is it conceivable that there is a continual alternating flow throughout the oceans between the 2 generating systems due to the conductive nature of salt water ?and with this pulsating flow of electric charge(electrons) there is the creation of a pulsating magnetic field.
it has been demonstrated that some known marine life are extremely sensitive to electromagnetic energy and depend on it for guidance/etc .perhaps also this voltage difference could create electrolysis by products in the oceans????
any body got any more insight into this?



>
>
Long Island Power Authority (LIPA)
> has proposed, which would generate electricity in such a way as to necessitate
> the transmission of large loads of high energy electricity on the seabed.
>
> As you will read, such a technology raises genuine questions about the effect
> upon sea life. While I believe this project would not be the first to utilize seabed
> transmission of electricity -- it is fair to ask (as Reba does): Do we really
> know what the risks are ... in such a project, or in this technology???
>
>
>
> ********************************************************************
>
> Richard L. Tomer, Chief
>
> U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
>
> New York District
>
> ATTN. Regulatory Branch, LIPA Offshore Wind Park Application
>
> Jacob Javits Building
>
> New York, NY 10278-0090 August 9, 2005
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Chief Tomer;
>
> I am a molecular biologist and professor in the Pathology Department at Columbia University. My area of expertise is, and has been, for more than 25 years, the biological effects of electric and magnetic fields on cells, tissues and whole animals. Our experiments have used field strengths from <80mG up to tens of Gauss. Our frequencies have varied from less than 60Hz up to Giga Hertz. We have published widely in such journals as Science and Journal of Cellular Biochemistry.
>
> I tell you all this because it has come to my attention that LIPA has made application for installation of an offshore wind energy generating facility and submarine electric cables. This strikes me as extremely dangerous and foolish in the face of the impact such an installation will have on the ocean waters and the animal and plant life that are contained therein. From our work we know that even 8micraTesla magnetic fields and <11microVolts/mm electric fields induce, within 20 minutes, changes in gene expression. Examples of genes upregulated are pre-cancer genes c-myc, c-src and c-fos and genes associated with the stress response, hsps.
>
> Waters containing plant and animal wild life will be seriously affected by the electric cables and their emissions. Genetic mutations are bound to occur quickly as the evolutionary balance of these organisms will be severely altered and such mutations will , in my opinion, lead to lethality and the death of these waters and the life that they contain. A vast stagnant swamp may be left after not many years and the entire area could be blighted.
>
> I ask that much more scientific investigation be done before any such installation is even thought of. You must get a group of marine biologists, population geneticists, molecular biologist and microbiologists as well as physicists to assess what looks to me like an ecological disaster in the making.
>
> Sincerely yours
>
> Reba Goodman PhD
>
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: are we "electrocuting" marine life

As the American systems and the European systems are only connected by one 'conductor' (the earth) how could any current flow between them?

It takes two conductors to make a circuit.
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
Re: are we "electrocuting" marine life

After carefully reading all of the first post, I have come to the conclusion " Were all gonna die". aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. :)
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: are we "electrocuting" marine life

I think its the marine life that is electrocuting each other! Electric snakes, eels, and rays, no wonder there is so much current in the sea. ;)
 

roger

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Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: are we "electrocuting" marine life

Not addressing the physics part of this thread, but I think the effects of current on aquatic life could be a true concern.

Look at what "Light Pollution" is doing to certain marine animals.

Look at the effects "Stray Current" has on live stock and milk production in dairies.

I have posted before about an underground MV cable that horses balked at crossing, yet walking around it barefoot (I was kid) on a regular basis, I felt nothing.

I'm not saying I'm a tree hugger, but the truth is, we have handed the earth all the s--- she can absorb with out handing some of it back to us as she is already doing in certain over populated areas.

If we don't start researching and planning a little better in considering things like this, our children and grand children will be wading in the aforementioned s--- we have left them.

Sorry about being so philosophical, hell I even surprised myself with that. :D


Roger
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: are we "electrocuting" marine life

At the entry to Disney's Animal Kingdom in Orlando, there is a sign that states, "We do not inherit the earth from our parents, we have it on loan from our children." :cool:
 

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
Re: are we "electrocuting" marine life

Originally posted by roger:


I'm not saying I'm a tree hugger, but the truth is, we have handed the earth all the s--- she can absorb with out handing some of it back to us as she is already doing in certain over populated areas.

1st, there is everything right about being a "tree hugger"! We should all have more tendencies in that direction.

2nd, I agree with you in that if we (the world) do not take some corrective action soon, we are doomed a lot sooner than we think.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: are we "electrocuting" marine life

There are two very wrong assumptions in the first post.
north America generates ac power at 60 cycles per second whereas Europe and others use 50 cycles per second as a time base.due to the phase / out of sync difference it would make it possible at times
to have north America on a positive maximum and Europe on a negative maximum which would create a voltage difference between systems of 120 volts and all in between.
This maximum can not happen as these power supply's are isolated from one another and current only returns to the source that generated it. Even having a grounding conductor connected (Earth) will not cause current to flow between them.

as current takes the path of least resistance or divides through a" path "is it conceivable that there is a continual alternating flow throughout the oceans
Current does not only take a path of least resistance!
It takes or shares all conductive paths to load and back to source. The source that the current originated at. It would be the last transformer in line from the generator. All non-auto transformers are isolating, this creates a new source at each one.

Any cable with current on them can be design to produce a very small electrical magnetic field by placing all cables of one circuit in close proximity to each other.

We have had power cables running on the ocean bottom for many years and I have never heard of any problems of any great fish kill from them? As with any circuit if it is installed correctly it should not pose a problem. I know of several that run to the Bahamas from Florida, There are many places that have them run out to islands to provide power to them from the main land. If they are ever damaged they short out quickly as was said salt water is a good conductor.

In conclusion I don't see the problem? :confused:

[ August 28, 2005, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 

sam ford

Member
Re: are we "electrocuting" marine life

how can 2 generating sources or magnetic electron pumps be considered as isolated when they are both attached to the same resistive conductor which is the earth in this case ?
and if one source was pushing out current(electrons) and the other was pulling in current(electrons) (ie a varying difference of voltage between them-above or below earth ground) with a common connection of variable resistance between them wouldn't the electrons scoot off at 186,000 miles per second(give or take) after going thru our wires ,preferering the path of least resistance which in the case of coastal areas might be the salt water oceans??-to whatever attracted them the most (all electron loyalty being replaced by the stronger desire to be neutral with the overall polarity of the earth's surface at any given instant???) this neutrality being a function of what the sun sends us???
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: are we "electrocuting" marine life

magnetic electron pumps
You certainly could call a generator an magnetic electron pump but they do not work the same way as water pump.

With a water pump I can 'pull' water from one pond and 'push' it to another separate pond.

A generator will not do that, I can not 'pull' electrons from one area and 'push' them to another area unless I join those separate areas with another conductor.

A generator will only move the electrons in a complete circuit.

If you could drag an ungrounded conductor from the American system over to England and drop it in the water over there then we would have current flow across the Atlantic. :)

Forget about the 'speed' of electricity at least for now. That will only muddy the waters at this point. :D
 

sam ford

Member
Re: are we "electrocuting" marine life

if at any given micro instant the electrons in New York are being "pushed" to ground by the generator there and at the same time being "pulled" from ground by the generator in London ie. postive/negative type stuff-what's to stop the new york electrons from taking a quick sea cruise to london.wouldn't there be a greater attraction to go london than to stay in new york because of the low resistance connection of the salt water???
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: are we "electrocuting" marine life

Sam the American electrons do not care what the English generator is doing. It is not their source so they will not head for it. :)

Maybe this will help.

Take two batteries, each one is a separate source really no different then two generators located an ocean away.

Now connect the positive of one to the negative of the other one.

Will current flow?

No.


By the way, I certainly agree we are damaging the planet in many ways, however I do not feel this particular scenario (mis-matched cycles between Countries) is an area we need to worry about. :)

IMO, the generation of the electricity itself is the bigger concern. :(
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: are we "electrocuting" marine life

By the way to keep things simple I have been treating this as one source on each continent but as Wayne pointed out each transformer location is a new 'source'.

There are literally many thousands of sources on each continent.
 

c-h

Member
Re: are we "electrocuting" marine life

As Hurk27 and iwire have explained, there is no (significant) current flowing between Europe and North America. At least not an electrical one :)

Other seas are however used as conductors. High voltage DC systems do sometimes employ a single wire with the sea as the return conductor. The Baltic sea is one example where high voltage cables crisscross the seafloor. There is no such cable across the Atlantic ocean. The longest HVDC cable (still in the works) is less than 600 km long, nowhere near enough to reach across the Atlantic.

To the best of my knowledge, the sea in never used as a return conductor for alternating current for various technical reasons. AC cables used under water have all three phase conductors. The longest underwater AC cable is some 100 km long.

On the dangers to marine life:

"in 1959 a study was carried out to determine how the Gotland cable had affected the marine environment. This was followed by exhaustive studies on the Fenno-Skan link (Sweden-Finland) and the Baltic Cable (Sweden-Germany). The reports were unanimous: marine life is affected neither by the magnetic field nor by any chemical reactions. The facts speak for themselves. Eels continue to find their way to the Baltic Sea, despite having to cross seven cables on the way."

Should you wish in-depth information (sorry, couldn't resist...) on this topic, you can read the article in Electricity Today where the quote came from. It can be found here
 

jim dungar

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Location
Wisconsin
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PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Re: are we "electrocuting" marine life

Sam,

You are fixating on the misconception that electrons always want to go to earth/ground. In electric power systems, electrons only want to go back to their source. The dirt that we call earth/ground is not a source of nor a sink for power system electrons.

The difference in frequency between Europe and North America is also not a factor. Power systems that contain harmonics regularly have "problems with different positive and negative maximums". Also, Northern Japan and it's islands are 50Hz and Southern Japan is 60Hz, so any potential problems would be more evident there than between continents.
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
Re: are we "electrocuting" marine life

When I used to live in Cocoa Beach Florida, I used to go in the Atlantic ocean every day. The thing that used to "shock" me the most was how tiny the local girls bikini's can actually be.. :cool:
 

sam ford

Member
Re: are we "electrocuting" marine life

there is a book written by russian researchers in the late sixties-electromagnetic fields and life by pressman in which they subjected all manner of life forms to varying intensities and frequencies of artificial electromagnetic energy.this was done in an era free of the amount of artificial electromagnetic energy we now produce and all live in.there was an adverse affect seen in all the tests they could conceive.many cases demonstrated that what we might consider as insignificant levels creating significant irreparable harm to the biological control systems which at that time and still aren't fully understood(the function of control by electromagnetic communication by cells/etc.)and in most cases the greatest harm was seen in the developing stages of an organisms life as things are just starting to be "organized".there have been thousands of articles/research efforts and many books since.american author robert becker being a pioneer.a search on the internet "know's it all" will verify this.
they all confirm that we don't know what were creating for the future with our artificial harnessing of electrons for our use.the article that was at the bottom of my post by reba is yet another example.life was designed over billions of years by natural electromagnetic energies!
it may be conceivable???that our ac grid and the electromagnetic energy radiated from it (the wire aerial effect)is now powerful enough to cause the surface of the earth-that which we call ground to ever so slightly??? raise up and down with it???(assuming??that all the utilities are synced together???)this might create a difference between the continents /land masses due to the above mentioned difference in cycles per second of generation.if due to a high resistance connection at the edges of the plates on the ocean floor/ etc. current could conceivably flow thru the oceans in an attempt to balance this(path of least resistance).this however insignificant amount being variable and capable of creating a magnetic field altering the natural magnetic heartbeat and as you can see from reba's article is doesn't take much to screw some poor little fish's day??
the effects of this much like cancer not appearing
what we would consider instantly but in future generations.life in the oceans is on a decline.overfishing is one problem but it doesn't appear to be rebounding when that aspect is removed and species not commercially fished or outside of that foodchain are disappearing.
would anyone know whether the voltage of the ground in new york varies between the ground in london?? or elsewhere in the world.those of you who work with undersea cables might have some knowledge or insight of this "possibility"(i would use the word remote but i'll let you with the knowledge decide that)
 
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