AMP READING ON GROUND
- Thread starter cwclifton
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
(1) Open neutral somewhere.
(2) Ground fault within some item of equipment.
(1) Open neutral somewhere.
(2) Ground fault within some item of equipment.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
I'd start flipping ciruit breakers off to find what circuit is supplying the current. Then it should be straight forward to isolate it on that circuit.
I'd start flipping ciruit breakers off to find what circuit is supplying the current. Then it should be straight forward to isolate it on that circuit.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
Is this the GEC from the service equipment? Is the metal water pipe part of a metal underground water piping system? If both answers are yes, this may be normal. When the answers to both of the questions are yes and there are other buildings in the area with their services bonded to the same water piping system the water piping system will be in parallel with the grounded conductor. In these cases it would not be unusual to find 25% or more of the grounded conductor current on the water piping system.
Don
Is this the GEC from the service equipment? Is the metal water pipe part of a metal underground water piping system? If both answers are yes, this may be normal. When the answers to both of the questions are yes and there are other buildings in the area with their services bonded to the same water piping system the water piping system will be in parallel with the grounded conductor. In these cases it would not be unusual to find 25% or more of the grounded conductor current on the water piping system.
Don
karl riley
Senior Member
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
I second Don's reply. I would only add that if it is 30% or more (rule of thumb) of the neutral current returning to Tfrmer by way of water system, there may be some developing impedance in the neutral connections from service entrance to Tfrmer. The utility may be asked to check.
It may be of interest that I was recently consulted by LA Dept of Water and Power as to what allowable limit if any might be put on current in water pipes. My reply was that it is relative to the total neutral current, and that above 30% could be an indication to check neutral connections. But a limit? I couldn't help with that. In my profession it depends on the location of the magnetic field generated by this splitting of current. If the water pipe runs through the building it can have an effect. And if the service entrance cable runs up the wall of the building the field will affect the rooms inside.
But it's good the utility guys are at least becoming aware of the water pipe current situation as perhaps needing some attention and action.
Karl
I second Don's reply. I would only add that if it is 30% or more (rule of thumb) of the neutral current returning to Tfrmer by way of water system, there may be some developing impedance in the neutral connections from service entrance to Tfrmer. The utility may be asked to check.
It may be of interest that I was recently consulted by LA Dept of Water and Power as to what allowable limit if any might be put on current in water pipes. My reply was that it is relative to the total neutral current, and that above 30% could be an indication to check neutral connections. But a limit? I couldn't help with that. In my profession it depends on the location of the magnetic field generated by this splitting of current. If the water pipe runs through the building it can have an effect. And if the service entrance cable runs up the wall of the building the field will affect the rooms inside.
But it's good the utility guys are at least becoming aware of the water pipe current situation as perhaps needing some attention and action.
Karl
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
I've run into the same situation where the system ground wire bonded to the neutral conductor in the main disconnect and bonded to the cold water pipe system shows an amperage reading of 3 amps.This is in a row of townhouses which have individual underground services for each townhouse which I believe all share a common water system run through a crawl space under the townhouses.So according to what Don and Karl have written this is a common/acceptable occurrence unless it exceeds 25% of the total neutral current.Any more may indicate a problem with the neutral back to the transformer on the street?I'm going to check with the local utility/AHJ and see what is acceptable locally.
Thank You
I've run into the same situation where the system ground wire bonded to the neutral conductor in the main disconnect and bonded to the cold water pipe system shows an amperage reading of 3 amps.This is in a row of townhouses which have individual underground services for each townhouse which I believe all share a common water system run through a crawl space under the townhouses.So according to what Don and Karl have written this is a common/acceptable occurrence unless it exceeds 25% of the total neutral current.Any more may indicate a problem with the neutral back to the transformer on the street?I'm going to check with the local utility/AHJ and see what is acceptable locally.
Thank You
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
I remember reading in an older version of Mike Holt's "Understanding the NEC" that current flow on metal water piping systems has a detrimental effect on said piping. [I am guessing this causes electolysis. ]
Can anyone confirm or deny that pipes are being eroded by current flow, and if it's a "big deal" or "no big deal" issue?
I remember reading in an older version of Mike Holt's "Understanding the NEC" that current flow on metal water piping systems has a detrimental effect on said piping. [I am guessing this causes electolysis. ]
Can anyone confirm or deny that pipes are being eroded by current flow, and if it's a "big deal" or "no big deal" issue?
karl riley
Senior Member
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
Peter, the AWWA (Amer waterworks Assoc) did a big study on this. I read most of it, and though there was some corrosion it may have been from the DC components of neutral current which it picks up from computer power components.Hard to pin down.
It seemed that the main objection was shock to the employees who cut through a pipe without putting jumper cables on both sides of the cut.
Karl
Peter, the AWWA (Amer waterworks Assoc) did a big study on this. I read most of it, and though there was some corrosion it may have been from the DC components of neutral current which it picks up from computer power components.Hard to pin down.
It seemed that the main objection was shock to the employees who cut through a pipe without putting jumper cables on both sides of the cut.
Karl
karl riley
Senior Member
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
Peter, the AWWA (Amer waterworks Assoc) did a big study on this. I read most of it, and though there was some corrosion it may have been from the DC components of neutral current which it picks up from computer power components.Hard to pin down.
It seemed that the main objection was shock to the employees who cut through a pipe without putting jumper cables on both sides of the cut.
Karl
Peter, the AWWA (Amer waterworks Assoc) did a big study on this. I read most of it, and though there was some corrosion it may have been from the DC components of neutral current which it picks up from computer power components.Hard to pin down.
It seemed that the main objection was shock to the employees who cut through a pipe without putting jumper cables on both sides of the cut.
Karl
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
Thanks Karl.
Thanks Karl.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
Don
The shock hazard for water workers only occurs when the grounded conductor is open or has a high impedance. If the grounded conductor is in good condition, the voltage between the two sections of the cut water pipe will equal that of the voltage drop on the grounded conductor. Note that because the common metal underground water pipe is such a good conductor, that an open neutral can go completely undetected until some one works on the water pipe and breaks the path.
Don
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
mikey yes.Was this job permited and inspected ?If not start there.
mikey yes.Was this job permited and inspected ?If not start there.
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
In the county I live in there is no building codes, therefore there is no inspectors to make sure a job is done right. I am no expert but I have found many N.E.C. violations.
The guy that did this job was a friend of mine, he became a licesned electrician and I didn`t think he would do me this way but. When he was done with the job I didn`t pay him for this terrible job and hired a lawyer and am waiting to go to court.
I know that an electrician has to pass a test to become licensed, this guy took a test of some sort 5 times in 5 different cities. I have known this guy for 30 years and he has had no training for this test, I don`t know how he finally passed test if he did, Is there such a thing as buying someone off to pass this test? I do know he is into politics to some degree.
In the county I live in there is no building codes, therefore there is no inspectors to make sure a job is done right. I am no expert but I have found many N.E.C. violations.
The guy that did this job was a friend of mine, he became a licesned electrician and I didn`t think he would do me this way but. When he was done with the job I didn`t pay him for this terrible job and hired a lawyer and am waiting to go to court.
I know that an electrician has to pass a test to become licensed, this guy took a test of some sort 5 times in 5 different cities. I have known this guy for 30 years and he has had no training for this test, I don`t know how he finally passed test if he did, Is there such a thing as buying someone off to pass this test? I do know he is into politics to some degree.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
Off topic:
Mikey, what exact code violations did this guy do? This is your second or third post along these lines, and you've vented a bit, but what was done? I see by your profile that you're a coal miner, so how do you know of NEC violations? Have you had another electrician check his work yet? Have you presented the missing water bond to this other electrician? What has he advised?
Off topic:
Mikey, what exact code violations did this guy do? This is your second or third post along these lines, and you've vented a bit, but what was done? I see by your profile that you're a coal miner, so how do you know of NEC violations? Have you had another electrician check his work yet? Have you presented the missing water bond to this other electrician? What has he advised?
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
George
I am and have been a coal miner for 28 years I have been around and am qualified with an electrical card from the Dept. of Labor to work on low, medium and high voltage surface and underground. I have had another licensed electrician and a building contractor here to give me an estimate for the electrical damage and structural damage. I do have some knowledge of the N.E.C. and I do have the 2002 book and the C.D. and I have the pocket guide to residential electrical inspections, I have found a lot of the mistakes myself and the electrician pointed some out that I didn't find.
Here are some of the codes I found problems with
314.20
406.4
314.21
408.20
210.21
210.24
300.4 (A) (1) (2)
110.12
314.17 (A)
312.5 (A)
110.3 (A)
210.52 (A) (B) (C) (E) (H)
210.23
210.12 (B)
410.8
210.11 (C) (2)
210.8 (A) (5)
240.4
110.22
There are several more but I figured you would get tired reading all of these and I am tired typing them.
George
I am and have been a coal miner for 28 years I have been around and am qualified with an electrical card from the Dept. of Labor to work on low, medium and high voltage surface and underground. I have had another licensed electrician and a building contractor here to give me an estimate for the electrical damage and structural damage. I do have some knowledge of the N.E.C. and I do have the 2002 book and the C.D. and I have the pocket guide to residential electrical inspections, I have found a lot of the mistakes myself and the electrician pointed some out that I didn't find.
Here are some of the codes I found problems with
314.20
406.4
314.21
408.20
210.21
210.24
300.4 (A) (1) (2)
110.12
314.17 (A)
312.5 (A)
110.3 (A)
210.52 (A) (B) (C) (E) (H)
210.23
210.12 (B)
410.8
210.11 (C) (2)
210.8 (A) (5)
240.4
110.22
There are several more but I figured you would get tired reading all of these and I am tired typing them.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
That's impressive. Duplicates aside, every single code you reference is common knowledge to any 6-month residential electrician. 110.12 was a nice addition too. Sounds like he really blew it.
[ December 26, 2004, 01:19 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
That's impressive. Duplicates aside, every single code you reference is common knowledge to any 6-month residential electrician. 110.12 was a nice addition too. Sounds like he really blew it.
I've never heard of that. Can you elaborate?
[ December 26, 2004, 01:19 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
I can elaborate but it may get lengthy.
First of all this was a 200 amp rewire job.
I will try to shorten this somewhat.
When he installed the wires in the weather head I was told by another electrician that he used a wrong wire for the nuetral to the meter base, it has a yellow stripe I was told was against code. When he installed the roof boot, he laid it on top of shingles instead of lacing shingles over it to keep it from leaking.
He installed a brand new meter base disconnect box on the outside of my house, I was going to run power to my garage from there, I asked what kind of breaker goes in that box, he told me and I bought one and it wouldn't`t snap in. I asked my buddy the electrician and he said he would install it, when he tried to install it he had trouble also so he got his trusty screwdriver out and started bending the plastic breaker holders and broke them on one side he said he would call factory to see what the problem was so about 3 days later I came home from work and found a breaker in the box. The following weekend I thought this would be a good time to run power to my garage, I did and when it was time to hook wire to breaker he installed it almost fell out when I removed breaker cover, I checked and he had broken the plastic clips on that one also.
I only wanted 12-2 wire used in my house and he knew that from the start but when I drop by after work one evening I found 14-2 all over the place, I jumped him about it and he said 12-2 is just overkill, that isn`t the point I wanted 12-2. I measured and I added for pigtails in boxes and I came up with less than one 250 foot roll of 12-2 used in my 2 story house with a basement.
Getting to the breaker box which is brand new and when they mounted it I measured it and it is mounted 4 inches from the wall to the outside cover at the top and 8-1/2 in away from the wall at the bottom. I already said is not bonded to the water system, it looks like a 6th grader installed this, the labels on the door to identify what breaker is for what you can`t hardly read, When the breaker in the kitchen kicks I go to set it and it is not kicked but the one that says dining room is. Things are scribbled out with magic marker pencil and ink pen, things are not what they say they are. For instance I had my microwave plugged on a 15 amp circuit and I had a lot of trouble when starting with breaker kicking but if I made sure my kitchen light and the porch light was off microwave wouldn`t kick breaker as much of the time.
He installed one 20 amp gfci circuit with 2 outlets over my counter top which is 14 feet long, he didn`t install any outlets on or around my island. I know this is an older home with plaster walls but every hole he cut in the walls is botched, I can get a finger or two in along the side of most of the boxes. The boxes used were old works boxes, I have had some of the pull out when unplugging something.
He installed new outlets in several rooms and the is 3 places that when cutting hole, I don`t know what he used but plaster is knocks off the wall for 22 inches on one outlet and 18 inches on the other two. In one bedroom which is wallpaper over plaster it looks like he make the hole with a sledge hammer, the paper is sticking out around the plate. Several places plaster is so damaged I can stick my finger or finger in along side of the plates, I jumped him about this and the wallpaper damage he said there was nothing he could do, he wasn`t a capenter. I have worked with plaster in the past and I know holes can be cut in it if you take your time.
I had ceiling light fixtures he took down to run new wire to and when reinstalling light fixture he didn`t even cover original holes light was installed in. There was no ceiling light fixture in the living room so I wanted box and wire and fan support installed so I could install one later, when I was ready to install a fan/light fixture, there was nothing on one side of their fan box to mount to, I had to completely redo the fan support. When they cut the hole in the tile for the box they over cut it, I thought the fan would hide the hole but after it was installed I can get 4 fingers along side through the tile. When they cut holes for boxes in my paneling, it almost looks like they used a chain saw, paneling is splintered and there is chatter marks where they let the saw get away from them and run down my baseboard and across the paneling. Right now I can sit on my couch and look at 3 outlets on my north wall and these are new installs and one is tilted to the left, one to the right and one is at a different height and I haven`t described the other 3 walls yet anyway they are the same way. On my east wall they drilled holes through every black line in my paneling, I assume they were stud finding. They used 16 penny nails in 3 other rooms for thet purpose and even left the nails in the wall in some cases.
My dining room had one two gang box, one switch for the light and one for the porch light, I wanted a 3 way switch for the light installed, this was a new installed switch and they mounted it5 ft. 9 in. from the floor and with the plaster damage and the wall paper damage feeling for this switch in the dark when sliding my hand up the wall I am always catching the ripped wallpaper and it is really looking bad now because of this unusual height.
My breaker box is in the basement the first thing they did was drill a 2-1/4 inch hole through 31 of my 2x8 floor joist and by the time he gets to the end he has only one 14-2 wire run through one 2-1/4 in hole I am no structural engineer but I did talk to one and he said I won`t have problem today but I will if something isn`t done soon to re enforce these floor joists.
I have 3 knock out holes in my breaker box left open. I was told by the other electrician that the 4/0 cable going into my breaker box has a romex clamp instead of a cable clamp which he said is wrong.
There is a 10-3 wire un to my central air unit and it has 5 places in the ouside jacket ripped, I know the inside isn`t damaged but I don`t was something damaged when I have something installed ne. I have no GFCI in the basement, I have no dedicated circuits in the basement for sump pump the sump pump is plugged into a 20 amp circuit with a 15 amp outlet. I have several problems like that 14-2 run to 20 amp breaker and 12-2 run to 15 amp breaker and the switch to my furnace is a 15 amp switch on a 12-2 wire, I know this will probably never cause a problem but I know it is not right.
I don`t like a juction box he run for my living room, he run a 12-2 homerun and has nine 14-2 romex connected to it I am concerned about boxfill. I have some juction boxes without covers. He has no seperate light circuits, from what I can tell they are just conected to each room, I would like them seperate to some extent, incase I kick a breaker I don`t have to walk around in the dark.
He has romex dangling in my basement, it wouldn`t of been too hard to put a few staples in to support it.
I guess I better wind this down, I could go on yet but I bet you are sorry you asked me to elaborate. It does help to vent some. after getting a job like this. I took pictures of this mess I have about a hundred pictures from the top to the bottom. This job started out to be kind of a buddy/buddy thing and then when he hands me a bill a month after he said he would be done and $2000.00 more than he said it would be, I want the job done right. Thanks George for listening.
Mike
I can elaborate but it may get lengthy.
First of all this was a 200 amp rewire job.
I will try to shorten this somewhat.
When he installed the wires in the weather head I was told by another electrician that he used a wrong wire for the nuetral to the meter base, it has a yellow stripe I was told was against code. When he installed the roof boot, he laid it on top of shingles instead of lacing shingles over it to keep it from leaking.
He installed a brand new meter base disconnect box on the outside of my house, I was going to run power to my garage from there, I asked what kind of breaker goes in that box, he told me and I bought one and it wouldn't`t snap in. I asked my buddy the electrician and he said he would install it, when he tried to install it he had trouble also so he got his trusty screwdriver out and started bending the plastic breaker holders and broke them on one side he said he would call factory to see what the problem was so about 3 days later I came home from work and found a breaker in the box. The following weekend I thought this would be a good time to run power to my garage, I did and when it was time to hook wire to breaker he installed it almost fell out when I removed breaker cover, I checked and he had broken the plastic clips on that one also.
I only wanted 12-2 wire used in my house and he knew that from the start but when I drop by after work one evening I found 14-2 all over the place, I jumped him about it and he said 12-2 is just overkill, that isn`t the point I wanted 12-2. I measured and I added for pigtails in boxes and I came up with less than one 250 foot roll of 12-2 used in my 2 story house with a basement.
Getting to the breaker box which is brand new and when they mounted it I measured it and it is mounted 4 inches from the wall to the outside cover at the top and 8-1/2 in away from the wall at the bottom. I already said is not bonded to the water system, it looks like a 6th grader installed this, the labels on the door to identify what breaker is for what you can`t hardly read, When the breaker in the kitchen kicks I go to set it and it is not kicked but the one that says dining room is. Things are scribbled out with magic marker pencil and ink pen, things are not what they say they are. For instance I had my microwave plugged on a 15 amp circuit and I had a lot of trouble when starting with breaker kicking but if I made sure my kitchen light and the porch light was off microwave wouldn`t kick breaker as much of the time.
He installed one 20 amp gfci circuit with 2 outlets over my counter top which is 14 feet long, he didn`t install any outlets on or around my island. I know this is an older home with plaster walls but every hole he cut in the walls is botched, I can get a finger or two in along the side of most of the boxes. The boxes used were old works boxes, I have had some of the pull out when unplugging something.
He installed new outlets in several rooms and the is 3 places that when cutting hole, I don`t know what he used but plaster is knocks off the wall for 22 inches on one outlet and 18 inches on the other two. In one bedroom which is wallpaper over plaster it looks like he make the hole with a sledge hammer, the paper is sticking out around the plate. Several places plaster is so damaged I can stick my finger or finger in along side of the plates, I jumped him about this and the wallpaper damage he said there was nothing he could do, he wasn`t a capenter. I have worked with plaster in the past and I know holes can be cut in it if you take your time.
I had ceiling light fixtures he took down to run new wire to and when reinstalling light fixture he didn`t even cover original holes light was installed in. There was no ceiling light fixture in the living room so I wanted box and wire and fan support installed so I could install one later, when I was ready to install a fan/light fixture, there was nothing on one side of their fan box to mount to, I had to completely redo the fan support. When they cut the hole in the tile for the box they over cut it, I thought the fan would hide the hole but after it was installed I can get 4 fingers along side through the tile. When they cut holes for boxes in my paneling, it almost looks like they used a chain saw, paneling is splintered and there is chatter marks where they let the saw get away from them and run down my baseboard and across the paneling. Right now I can sit on my couch and look at 3 outlets on my north wall and these are new installs and one is tilted to the left, one to the right and one is at a different height and I haven`t described the other 3 walls yet anyway they are the same way. On my east wall they drilled holes through every black line in my paneling, I assume they were stud finding. They used 16 penny nails in 3 other rooms for thet purpose and even left the nails in the wall in some cases.
My dining room had one two gang box, one switch for the light and one for the porch light, I wanted a 3 way switch for the light installed, this was a new installed switch and they mounted it5 ft. 9 in. from the floor and with the plaster damage and the wall paper damage feeling for this switch in the dark when sliding my hand up the wall I am always catching the ripped wallpaper and it is really looking bad now because of this unusual height.
My breaker box is in the basement the first thing they did was drill a 2-1/4 inch hole through 31 of my 2x8 floor joist and by the time he gets to the end he has only one 14-2 wire run through one 2-1/4 in hole I am no structural engineer but I did talk to one and he said I won`t have problem today but I will if something isn`t done soon to re enforce these floor joists.
I have 3 knock out holes in my breaker box left open. I was told by the other electrician that the 4/0 cable going into my breaker box has a romex clamp instead of a cable clamp which he said is wrong.
There is a 10-3 wire un to my central air unit and it has 5 places in the ouside jacket ripped, I know the inside isn`t damaged but I don`t was something damaged when I have something installed ne. I have no GFCI in the basement, I have no dedicated circuits in the basement for sump pump the sump pump is plugged into a 20 amp circuit with a 15 amp outlet. I have several problems like that 14-2 run to 20 amp breaker and 12-2 run to 15 amp breaker and the switch to my furnace is a 15 amp switch on a 12-2 wire, I know this will probably never cause a problem but I know it is not right.
I don`t like a juction box he run for my living room, he run a 12-2 homerun and has nine 14-2 romex connected to it I am concerned about boxfill. I have some juction boxes without covers. He has no seperate light circuits, from what I can tell they are just conected to each room, I would like them seperate to some extent, incase I kick a breaker I don`t have to walk around in the dark.
He has romex dangling in my basement, it wouldn`t of been too hard to put a few staples in to support it.
I guess I better wind this down, I could go on yet but I bet you are sorry you asked me to elaborate. It does help to vent some. after getting a job like this. I took pictures of this mess I have about a hundred pictures from the top to the bottom. This job started out to be kind of a buddy/buddy thing and then when he hands me a bill a month after he said he would be done and $2000.00 more than he said it would be, I want the job done right. Thanks George for listening.
Mike
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: AMP READING ON GROUND
Wow. That's a helluva story.
Uh...I meant, can you elaborate on your...uh...card from the Labor Department?
Wow. That's a helluva story.
Uh...I meant, can you elaborate on your...uh...card from the Labor Department?
- Status