AFCI Everthing!

[cowboyjwc]

One of the biggest problems I have with the whole AFCI thing is the fact that those original proposals said that they had a device that would do what they now tell us that the combination AFCI will do...those original proposals were ~13 years prior to the sale of the first combination AFCI.
Based on that total fraud, I am very reluctant to believe anything that is published by the manufacturers about these devices.

I'll go along with you on that. I was actually giving bad information to even my guys, because, I too, was told that they did what the combo ones do now.

 

[ActionDave]

I'll go along with you on that. I was actually giving bad information to even my guys, because, I too, was told that they did what the combo ones are supposedly supposed to do now.

Fixed it for you. The fact is there is no objective way to test an AFCI. I can test a GFCI, albeit unofficially, and see results.

When it comes to AFCI's all I get is an assurance from the manufacture that goes something along the lines of-
"It works just like we say it does. It can tell the difference between a bad arc and a normal arc. See, just push the test button on the breaker.

Why does it trip when your customer turns on the T.V.? Well, we have a number you can call to report such a strange event. The only time we ever had such an event occur was on during an odd numbered month on even numbered days that didn't end in the letter y.

No problem though, give me your address and we'll send you another breaker that is much better than the other one that we put on the market nine weeks ago. We will send it to you free of charge. Go and swap it with our old breaker, that was perfectly good, just not as good as this new one.

Who will pay for this extra trip? Not us. We only sell breakers."

 

[kwired]

Fixed it for you. The fact is there is no objective way to test an AFCI. I can test a GFCI, albeit unofficially, and see results.

When it comes to AFCI's all I get is an assurance from the manufacture that goes something along the lines of-
"It works just like we say it does. It can tell the difference between a bad arc and a normal arc. See, just push the test button on the breaker.

Why does it trip when your customer turns on the T.V.? Well, we have a number you can call to report such a strange event. The only time we ever had such an event occur was on during an odd numbered month on even numbered days that didn't end in the letter y.

No problem though, give me your address and we'll send you another breaker that is much better than the other one that we put on the market nine weeks ago. We will send it to you free of charge. Go and swap it with our old breaker, that was perfectly good, just not as good as this new one.

Who will pay for this extra trip? Not us. We only sell breakers."

There is the reason for the price of the AFCIs'- the need for extra customer service to handle the calls, and to ship out those replacements, otherwise they only cost an extra $5 per unit to make them

 

[cowboyjwc]

I don't know, must be the cold weather up by you guys. I don't hear very much from any of the local electricians here about having problems with them.

Could be because they know I don't really care. I can only go by what the code says. You can do whatever you want once I leave, but if we ever go to court you know what my answer is going to be, "it was right when I signed it your honor."

 

[romex jockey]

Joseph C Engel, PhD, a prominent IEEE member forawded a paper @ the 2101 IEEE conference titled "Combination AFCI's, What they will and will not do"

http://www.combinationafci.com/resources/doc_ieee_combination_afci.pdf

This paper is lengthly, but inclusive of the history of AFCI's (which Dr. Engel was privy to) as well as the CMP-2 evolution(s) , manufacturer interventions, CPSC involvement, etc

I would highly recommend you read it, and as many states have the perogative of ammendments, pass it on to your state's informational officer

~R~

 

[ActionDave]

I don't know, must be the cold weather up by you guys. I don't hear very much from any of the local electricians here about having problems with them....

If I am not mistaken Cali just now switched to '08 code. If true then that would explain it. I never had any trouble with the old AFCI breakers. It was when the new combo breakers came out that all the trouble started for me.

I'd be curious to know if you start getting more complaints.

 

[romex jockey]

The problem with AFCI's is simple

they don't do what they claim to do

so let me ask the EC's here this.....

We install, on the average, $1000 worth of specialized breakers in a new home.

For some of us, this has been code since the '99 cycle

That's a lotta $$$ in false protection out there

Sooner or later, and it will probably be later the way the nfpa is perpetuating this fraud, the truth will bubble to the surface as it always does

many of us expect litigation to follow, possibly other watchdogs like the CPSC , etc being involved

Where does the onus of guilt lie then? My advice as an EC here is to purposely allow the state to write up a violation to show they (and not I, the EC) advocates these devices

Yes , i know i'll probably be saving those tickets for a long long time......

~R~

 

[romex jockey]

I'd be curious to know if you start getting more complaints.

If 'complaint' could be seen as ROP, i'm willing to wager 210.12 has generated more action than any other given code article

~R~

 

[iwire]

My advice as an EC here is to purposely allow the state to write up a violation to show they (and not I, the EC) advocates these devices

So you want to draw a fail on every home you do?

Yeah that that makes sense and very likely to quickly make things harder on you once the inspectors get sick of it.

 

[romex jockey]

Yes iwire

It is not the first time my professional integrity has cost me, and most likely will not be the last....

~R~

 

[iwire]

Yes iwire

It is not the first time my professional integrity has cost me, and most likely will not be the last....

~R~

Nice try but that is not 'professional integrity' that is being a PITA as a means of protest and you just make it difficult for those whose job it is to enforce a code section they did not write or ask for.

 

[romex jockey]

Iwire

I think you need to understand this is more than some 60's style protest , or even biz ethics for that matter

My company has probably installed 5 zero's worth of these devices over the last 15 yrs

We're not about to be called on the carpet for advocating them in any future class action suit, recall, OR failure of performance

We call that survival

~R~

 

[romex jockey]

Perhaps i should add that most states have some level of sovereign immunity , where most EC's do not Iwire

~R~

 

[kwired]

The problem with AFCI's is simple

they don't do what they claim to do

so let me ask the EC's here this.....

We install, on the average, $1000 worth of specialized breakers in a new home.

For some of us, this has been code since the '99 cycle

That's a lotta $$$ in false protection out there

I agree

Sooner or later, and it will probably be later the way the nfpa is perpetuating this fraud, the truth will bubble to the surface as it always does

many of us expect litigation to follow, possibly other watchdogs like the CPSC , etc being involved

Very well could happen

Where does the onus of guilt lie then? My advice as an EC here is to purposely allow the state to write up a violation to show they (and not I, the EC) advocates these devices

Yes , i know i'll probably be saving those tickets for a long long time......

~R~

In the meantime you have customers that potentially never receive a CO, maybe never get the service energized, and spend thousands on their new or remodeled home and never get to use it. Is that good business practice? Your competitors have to meet the same standard so it is fair in that way.

 

[romex jockey]

It's a personal conundrum for me Kwired , like selling someone an empty fire extinguisher , i just want it known & recorded that i am doing it under protest, my (many at this point) AHJ's understand my stance, and understand i'm not trying to be an a-hole about it, they just roll their eyes , write me up, and i go install them, i don't give them any grief about it, why should i?

That said, as usual, it comes down to education, which one needs to be willing to pursue

Google up Dr Joe Engel's feb 2102 IEEE paper, the man's involvement goes back to the inception of the device in question, i've passed this onto many an inspector, as well as state officials

be advised, it is not a quick or easy read, it is lengthy and detailed, and pretty much what one would expect of a PHD level EE

Unfortunatly, i would be violating the forums copywrite rules to post the url here (mea cuppa)

~R~

 

[romex jockey]

There is no evidence that a series arc can even exist at the voltage of the circuits that require AFCI protection.

Friedrich Paschen thanks you sir.....

~R~

 

[kwired]

It's a personal conundrum for me Kwired , like selling someone an empty fire extinguisher , i just want it known & recorded that i am doing it under protest, my (many at this point) AHJ's understand my stance, and understand i'm not trying to be an a-hole about it, they just roll their eyes , write me up, and i go install them, i don't give them any grief about it, why should i?

That said, as usual, it comes down to education, which one needs to be willing to pursue

Google up Dr Joe Engel's feb 2102 IEEE paper, the man's involvement goes back to the inception of the device in question, i've passed this onto many an inspector, as well as state officials

be advised, it is not a quick or easy read, it is lengthy and detailed, and pretty much what one would expect of a PHD level EE

Unfortunatly, i would be violating the forums copywrite rules to post the url here (mea cuppa)

~R~

How much does correction notice and/or reinspection fee cost you? It would cost me $50 for first reinspection, $100 for additional reinspections.

 

[iwire]

Iwire

I think you need to understand this is more than some 60's style protest , or even biz ethics for that matter

My company has probably installed 5 zero's worth of these devices over the last 15 yrs

We're not about to be called on the carpet for advocating them in any future class action suit, recall, OR failure of performance

We call that survival

~R~

You will not be called on the carpet for installing what the code requires or required.

And if by chance you were ... your collection of red tags would be as meaning less as TP.

Furthermore you are trying to honestly tell us that for those 5 zeros worth of AFCIs you have installed you have intentionally drawn a red tag every time?

I think you are full of it.

 

[romex jockey]

How much does correction notice and/or reinspection fee cost you? It would cost me $50 for first reinspection, $100 for additional reinspections.

fees are @ their discression Kwired, many times i'm simply allowed to rectify the situation without their return via personal recognizance....~R~

 

[romex jockey]

You will not be called on the carpet for installing what the code requires or required.

depends who's doing the calling iwire....

And if by chance you were ... your collection of red tags would be as meaning less as TP.

methinks the term you seek is jurisprudence

Furthermore you are trying to honestly tell us that for those 5 zeros worth of AFCIs you have installed you have intentionally drawn a red tag every time?

i don't need to defend what i did not state sir....

I think you are full of it.

and i think CMP-2 is

let me ask you again here, how many 210.12 B rop's have been roundfiled by CMP-2 ?

i would think they have exceeded all prior rop records over the last 3-4 cycles

is literacy a requirement of their appointment?

~R~