AFCI Everthing!

[Little Bill]

They might as well just go ahead and require the main to be AFCI as things just keep getting added to the current requirements.

This has been discussed here before but I don't recall anyone mentioning requiring devices such as switches be protected even though the switch is for something that doesn't require AFCI.

You can read the article from NFPA here if you want to be dazzled.:happysad:

http://www.necplus.org/Features/Pages/AFCIRulesCouldExpandProtectionforBranchCircuits.aspx?sso=0

 

[GoldDigger]

They might as well just go ahead and require the main to be AFCI as things just keep getting added to the current requirements.

This has been discussed here before but I don't recall anyone mentioning requiring devices such as switches be protected even though the switch is for something that doesn't require AFCI.

You can read the article from NFPA here if you want to be dazzled.:happysad:

http://www.necplus.org/Features/Pages/AFCIRulesCouldExpandProtectionforBranchCircuits.aspx?sso=0

If you look at their reasoning a little more generously, you will see that what the proposed requirement tries to address is the presence of a location where both series and parallel arc faults could easily be created inside the covered area, even if the actual loads associated are outside the protected area.
But from there the slippery slope leads directly to applying the same requirement to any junction box inside the protected area which contains wires which go anywhere else, even if no device such as a switch is present.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

They will never make a main breaker afci and if they did you would be a fool to use it.

 

[Little Bill]

They will never make a main breaker afci and if they did you would be a fool to use it.

That statement was meant to be "tongue and cheek" just being sarcastic because of all the proposed AFCI requirements.

Especially all the "life saving" statements being made and no evidense (as far as I know) to back up that claim.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I have heard that in 2014 they may allow nm cable as a homerun if the first outlet has an afci receptacle. Leviton has them available right now for somewhere in the 35-40 dollar range. Someone told me in the 20 dollar range but I am not sure about that.

 

[infinity]

They might as well just go ahead and require the main to be AFCI as things just keep getting added to the current requirements.

This has been discussed here before but I don't recall anyone mentioning requiring devices such as switches be protected even though the switch is for something that doesn't require AFCI.

The switch requirement was a change adapted from one of my proposals regarding lighted switches and AFCI protection when the switch controlled something outside of the room requiring AFCI.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Arc faults have been nothing but trouble for me with the increasing amount of call backs on new construction. Everything is fine until the homeowner moves in and starts plugging in all their stuff. I've had issues with flat screen tv's, under cabinet lights, vacuum cleaners, recessed cans and treadmills. I built a new house last year and out of 8 arc fault breakers, I only have a couple left as I'm installing conventional breakers on circuits where the nuisance trips have gotten ridiculous.

 

[kwired]

The switch requirement was a change adapted from one of my proposals regarding lighted switches and AFCI protection when the switch controlled something outside of the room requiring AFCI.

Now put a panel in a room that requires AFCI protection. Does that mean the main supply requires AFCI?

Lets not forget all that requires AFCI is 15 and 20 amp 125 volt circuits supplying outlets in specific rooms, at least right now. A switch is not an outlet - at least right now, that has been debated some also with the requirement to have the grounded conductor at switches in many locations.

A switch in an area not requiring AFCI but controlling outlets in an area where AFCI is required will still be AFCI protected, except maybe with the wall box type AFCI devices starting to come into play.

 

[Steviechia2]

Arc faults have been nothing but trouble for me with the increasing amount of call backs on new construction. Everything is fine until the homeowner moves in and starts plugging in all their stuff. I've had issues with flat screen tv's, under cabinet lights, vacuum cleaners, recessed cans and treadmills. I built a new house last year and out of 8 arc fault breakers, I only have a couple left as I'm installing conventional breakers on circuits where the nuisance trips have gotten ridiculous.

I would like to add to the list---some computers and I just had a leviton dimmer trip it.
I have found when you install plugs make sure ground wire is not touching neutral which will make arc arc fault trip

 

[jap]

I've installed a lot of receptacles over the years.

I treat the neutral and ground seperation inside the box the same way as I treat the hot to ground seperation inside the box.

Why is the issue of the Neutral touching the ground always coming up?

It should'nt.

JAP>

 

[iwire]

I've installed a lot of receptacles over the years.

I treat the neutral and ground seperation inside the box the same way as I treat the hot to ground seperation inside the box.

Why is the issue of the Neutral touching the ground always coming up?

It should'nt.

JAP>

So you have never made a mistake?

Never had a short circuit or ground fault?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I've installed a lot of receptacles over the years.

I treat the neutral and ground seperation inside the box the same way as I treat the hot to ground seperation inside the box.

Why is the issue of the Neutral touching the ground always coming up?

It should'nt.

JAP>

It happens more than you think with newbies. That is the first thing I teach my helpers-- keep their hands off the walls and fold the equipment grounding conductor out of harms way.

 

[kwired]

I've installed a lot of receptacles over the years.

I treat the neutral and ground seperation inside the box the same way as I treat the hot to ground seperation inside the box.

Why is the issue of the Neutral touching the ground always coming up?

It should'nt.

JAP>

Neutral to ground faults are probably the biggest cause of so called "nuisance tripping" of AFCI's as well as GFCI's. Same installation with no AFCI or GFCI doesn't trip anything, yet still has an undesired path for neutral current.

NM cable and its primarily bare EGC's is easier to come in contact with a terminal of another conductor. Since the EGC and grounded conductor terminals are generally on same side of receptacle it probably happens more often than incidental contact with the ungrounded conductor.

 

[jap]

So you have never made a mistake?

Never had a short circuit or ground fault?

You know better than to ask that.
but in answer to your question yes but not very often, not as often as it seems to come up on the Arc Fault conversations.

JAP>

 

[jap]

Neutral to ground faults are probably the biggest cause of so called "nuisance tripping" of AFCI's as well as GFCI's. Same installation with no AFCI or GFCI doesn't trip anything, yet still has an undesired path for neutral current.

NM cable and its primarily bare EGC's is easier to come in contact with a terminal of another conductor. Since the EGC and grounded conductor terminals are generally on same side of receptacle it probably happens more often than incidental contact with the ungrounded conductor.

I hear it happens a lot,and I understand mistakes happen, but still dont think that it should happen as much as it does.

To me its not the location of the terminals but the lack of taking the time to see that it is installed corectly in the first place.

 

[kwired]

I hear it happens a lot,and I understand mistakes happen, but still dont think that it should happen as much as it does.

To me its not the location of the terminals but the lack of taking the time to see that it is installed corectly in the first place.

And if you have installed thousands of receptacles in the past and never had a device trip because there was no device there that would respond to this particular fault, then you likely never had a reason to pay attention to make sure this kind of fault never occurred. One good thing about AFCI is it does make wiring errors show up that went unnoticed before.

 

[cowboyjwc]

That statement was meant to be "tongue and cheek" just being sarcastic because of all the proposed AFCI requirements.

Especially all the "life saving" statements being made and no evidense (as far as I know) to back up that claim.

And you will never know. No one knows how many lifes GFCI's save every year either, because no one calls in and say's "I dropped my hair dryer in the sink and the GFCI tripped".

When I first started GFCI's were at about a 70% fail rate right out of the box, so every time one didn't work it always had to be the receptacle's fault. Everyone is sure that AFCI's are garbage and that it couldn't possibly be a pinched wire under a staple or a cut wire or a bad appliance.

 

[cowboyjwc]

And if you have installed thousands of receptacles in the past and never had a device trip because there was no device there that would respond to this particular fault, then you likely never had a reason to pay attention to make sure this kind of fault never occurred. One good thing about AFCI is it does make wiring errors show up that went unnoticed before.

And that too. :happyyes:

 

[kwired]

And you will never know. No one knows how many lifes GFCI's save every year either, because no one calls in and say's "I dropped my hair dryer in the sink and the GFCI tripped".

When I first started GFCI's were at about a 70% fail rate right out of the box, so every time one didn't work it always had to be the receptacle's fault. Everyone is sure that AFCI's are garbage and that it couldn't possibly be a pinched wire under a staple or a cut wire or a bad appliance.

Were about 70% of them defective or did you find out you actually had faults in your wiring and it was simply detecting them in most cases? There have been improvements to the GFCI's that help prevent some undesired tripping, but the basic principle of operation has not really changed any.

 

[jap]

And if you have installed thousands of receptacles in the past and never had a device trip because there was no device there that would respond to this particular fault, then you likely never had a reason to pay attention to make sure this kind of fault never occurred. One good thing about AFCI is it does make wiring errors show up that went unnoticed before.

Your taking me all wrong on this.

The way I see it is once the wiring is terminated and the wiring is installed there's never really a need to disturb the connection or the device unless something goes wrong.
I dont see much vibration that would accidently make the neutral come in contact with the ground wire if the wires were seperated enough on installation.
so then it falls back to the wires not being seperated enough in the box to begin with.

Accidental ground to neutral contacts I can see,

For instance I troubleshot a tripping arc fault the other night becauise when the customer replaced the lamp in the vanity fixture the Neutral shell of the socket twiisted over and made
contact with the metal housing. (Cheap Fixture). I can see that, but it shouldnt happen very often in the house wiring just because the Neutral and Ground connections are on the same side.