Working Hot

[wattey]

Re: Working Hot

Oh I know the risks of low voltage Arcing, Just saying that our Regs in England are (were possibly ... been 3 years since I was in England) not as strict on PPE as you seem to be over here.

I seen a friend take an 11,000V shock when crawling in a cable trench, he unwittingly found some damaged cable by kneeling on it. He was *very* lucky that day to get away with burns and some nasty brusing (from hitting the trench wall) Its not something to be played with and I do tend to yell alot at the TV when watching certian DIY shows on HGTV.

Shaine~

 

[roger]

Re: Working Hot

Shaine,

I do tend to yell alot at the TV when watching certian DIY shows on HGTV.

I can relate.

Roger

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Working Hot

Jim,

I am all for well insulated shoes and tools. And would never ignore grounded items that i might come in contact with.Sometimes ideal conditions just can't be met.

Electric shock is only a small part of the problem when you are working on energized high capacity systems. The arc is over 20,000?, the blast pressure can exceed 2000 psi, and the sound of the blast can destroy your hearing. Protection from all of these plus electric shock is required.
Don

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Working Hot

In commercial or industrial yes.In a house not likely unless your in the panel.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Working Hot

Jim,
None of the service work in a house is in the main panel????????
Don

 

[wattey]

Re: Working Hot

Don what line are you in that you work live on energized high capacity systems? The only high Cap systems I have had the pleasure of working on were for the HF welder system, and we *never* worked live on it. Indeed the first thing we did after opening the unit was attatch grounding rods to 110% ensure a full discharge before we thought about touching anything. That was in addition to the mechanical interlocking system that was supposed to actuate grounding circuits.

Just curious B/C I have never even concidered working *near* an Energized high cap system. The risk of arcing is not numbers I like to gamble with.

Shaine~

Thinking about it I should clarify .. to me High Cap system is 11Kv+ ... Maby I am getting the wrong impression and we are talking totally different specs...

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Working Hot

Yes some is in the panel.Turn main off .Can't go around cutting meter seals all day.This should be a journeyman in the panel but will admit i have allowed some helpers in live panels

 

[pierre]

Re: Working Hot

Jim
When you permitted the 'helper' to work in the panel were you aware of his safety training? Did you make sure he was using some type of PPE? Did you also know that the insulation on the handles of 99% of the pliers sold over the counter say not for use on live electrical circuits?
Would you be prepared to speak to his family if he was injured or killed?
Did you think of these things first or were you trying to complete the job?
My helpers are not permitted to work on live work until they have shown me they have the proper respect for the type of work and I have made sure they have the proper training. It cost me money, but I get two things back - a better trained worker and lower insurance.
I was taught by blowing up screwdrivers and pliers, not very good training. That is why I get so peeved when I am on this subject.
I am not picking on you

Pierre

 

[roger]

Re: Working Hot

Pierre, Jim doesn't put much effort into an apprentice period, here is his attitude on providing them with training from the Journeymen - what tools? thread.

posted January 01, 2004 08:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK Jim with this harda** attitude, do you offer and pay for their formal schooling, all 4 years of it?

H--- NO
Have never seen anyone offering me free education.Are they signing a contract with me to work for the next xxxyears at xxx$
Training is at ones own exspince.
The reward is more pay
Let's see if a school system will pay for 4 years of college for me to be a teacher.
Let's see a truck firm pay for your learning to get a CDL (they will emburse you after you stay so long)
If they want to advance to the next level ,read up and take classes.Maybe mommy or daddy will pay.
Train them on company money NO WAY
Let them see what guys make that have training and invest in them selfs.
Go ahead call be a hard a--
I am not in this for fun.

NOTE; I added the bold.

Roger

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Working Hot

I trusted him, he knowed enough to be in there or i wouldn't have let him.I am not aginst them learning just don't think the company should pay.The money should go to the man working not to train the guy trying to take his place.Why pay say $10 an hour to a helper plus his training say $2 hour ,when for $12 an hour i could hire a man that already knows how to do the job ?I know you think im a hard a--.Things down here are not like you do it up north.

 

[pierre]

Re: Working Hot

Jim
One of the responsibilities of becoming an electrical contractor is the men you hire. (I am not sure, but I take it you are not a contractor)
I know you may not want to hear this, but OSHA has rules that have to be followed (one of the reasons they are not always followed is the policeing is not comprehensive) for training the men you hire. If you do not train them or cannot prove that they have training, then they will be severely restricted as to the types of work that can be legally performed. And as a contractor that does put one out on a limb - as far as liability goes.

Beyond that though, let me tell you my experiences as a contractor.
I mandate training and sometimes the guys get mad about that. I also make sure the training is of quality. The results are better than I expected.

13 Years in business.
Not one reported injury, even for stitches
We sit around the office and have the 'toolbox talk', with the signin sheets. I have safety video, and all kinds of videos that I have spent $1000s on and my insurance agent has seen them.
Another result is my guys preach safety to other trades on the job, and as a result some of the other trades have gotten goggles, gloves and better cords and ladders.

The best result though is the feeling I have with these guys, they know it is not all dollars and cents with me and we get along pretty well. The guy I fired asks for his job back all the time, that says something.

BTW- I make them all take classes for code and theory and I reimburse them when I see the certificate of completion. they have to take two classes a year or listen to me preach I am damn proud of them too!! and I let them know that.

Pierre

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Working Hot

Not contracting right now.I have some other things in the fire that pay better.Come to FL and check things out.It just isn't at all like that here.We have houses getting wired by INSTALLERS
not electricians.Some have never pulled wires,they are trained only to do the job needed done.Some only ruff in houses from a print that tells them point to point run this wire.The rules here allow anyone to wire that the masters wants to hire.Few even care if you have a journeymans card.Wish things were as you describe but they are not.

 

[wattey]

Re: Working Hot

Pierre,

Sounds like you run a tight ship there. Gratz to you.

Unfortunately as Jim says there are alot of ways to gain Electrical training. I was fortunate enough to leave school at 15 and sign on with a multi-national corp which trained me, Equipped me and paid me for my 4 year apprenticeship. That included 1 full year at a Technical School and 3 years of day release (1 full day at Tech school) and 2 night classes / week. All paid for by the company.

Working for a big company on an 11sq mile site I got a hand in everything. A few years back however England suffered a depression in Electrical personal and the company hired from outside. People that were trained *only* as Domestic, or only in refrigeration. I once told a guy *I removed the old Inverter and replaced it with a new one, it just needs wiring up to finish off* as I was leaving my shift to get the reply *Whats an inverter?* from an Electrician 2 years my senior.

I assume Jim pays his guys what he thinks they are worth and for the job they do. Its not unusual for a company to only refund moneys spent on education after seeing a pass slip, or indeed to up pay scales based on course completed.

What I would like to know from Jim is this, You have a crew of guys doing given jobs. Your *Helper* goes out and gets his Master papers. This might land the guy out of a job though because you don't want to pay a Master .. you just want a helper. Do you give any incentive (job security) for your guys to go out and get better trained ... or do they know becoming a Master will leave them either an under-paid Master or looking for a new Job?

There are 3 sides to every story, His, yours and the truth. Maby your guys don't see the point in getting better trained because it would put their jobs at risk?

Shaine~

 

[roger]

Re: Working Hot

Wattey,

Maby your guys don't see the point in getting better trained because it would put their jobs at risk?

in this case, the training is not offered.

As you stated earlier in you reference to the electrician 2 years your senior being not as well trained or knowledges as yourself, this is another reason some do not want to offer the training. In otherwords they don't want to have an employee threaten them with superior theory or overall knowledge.

We have had to modify the way we offer our training, we once funded everything up front just to have some leave for what ever reason before completing their courses.

We then furnished all text books and classes as an employee loan at $2.00 per week for the full four years and then refunded this money upon their completing the course.

After a period of time and input from the employees themselves, we now make the classes available with employee loans and upon completing their courses and getting their card they are rewarded with a sizable raise (much more than an employee with just comparable time in the trade) which is better for the employee than the previous options.

Any company can work out a beneficial way to do this for both parties.


Roger

[ January 02, 2004, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[wattey]

Re: Working Hot

Roger,

"in this case, the training is not offered."

I assume you mean jim does not offer training. Thats an acceptable practice, he is not mandated to train his employees further than he wishes to. He did say though :

"Train them on company money NO WAY
Let them see what guys make that have training and invest in them selfs."

Implying that they should go out and seek training on their own time and moneys. I was just asking Jim, If your Employees *did* go out on their own and seek training, how would their job security be? If a 25year old *helper* has a wife + 2 kids and spends a couple thousand $ getting his Masters ... what kind of encouragement is it if he knows he'll be out of a job right away?

Now Jim could answer ... Well he'll be a Master and can go find another job, but we all know that even Master's don't walk into jobs the next day.

I was simply wondering if Jim gave his employees any encouragement to get better trained?

"they don't want to have an employee threaten them with superior theory or overall knowledge."

I hope this is not a common attitude in the field
The firm I worked for wanted better trained personal, and the contractors I worked with in England were happy to seek advice from someone who knew the Reg's better. I don't claim everyone was like that and we all live in harmony over there, just that its not a prevalent attitude I have encountered.

I take pride in knowing that when I leave a job its done and done right. If I am doing something and someone points out a slight error I'm more than willing to correct it. No one can know the whole code verbatim and I see no shame in someone else pointing out a slight error.


Shaine~

 

[iwire]

Re: Working Hot

Originally posted by wattey:
"in this case, the training is not offered."

I assume you mean jim does not offer training. Thats an acceptable practice, he is not mandated to train his employees further than he wishes to. He did say though :

That is not entirely true.

OSHA mandates employers provide safety training for the hazards that they expose their employees to.

At a minimum for an electric contractor this would be electrical safety and LOTO.

 

[wattey]

Re: Working Hot

Roger:

"We have had to modify the way we offer our training, we once funded everything up front just to have some leave for what ever reason before completing their courses"

Yes unfortunately this is exactly what lead to a short fall in skilled Electrical personnel in England. Firms would fund Apprenticeships only to have people walk out mid-way through or at the end of the course. So firms stopped schemes and pulled from the pool of all ready trained Electricians.

The Firm I worked for hired 11 Apprentices the year I started, 5 Electrical and 6 Fitters. 1 dropped out leaving us 10. When I left the firm 11 years later they had hired 2 apprentices in the previous 5 years.

Then alot of the older guys hit 55-60 and retired, Bang shortage. They were talking out *refund training* and such when I left. Sad state of affairs really but the world turns and we adapt.

Shaine~

 

[wattey]

Re: Working Hot

Bob:

Sorry I should have been clearer. I meant he is not mandated to train them further than he wishes to in an Electrical capacity, be it helper, Apprentice, Journeyman, Master. Safety is always mandated

I assume he gives them the required training for the job they do (or indeed hires people with the given training) My question to Jim was about encouragement to better themselves. He implies in his reply they should look around at skilled people and take it upon themselves to seek training. Thats no encouragement if better trained = no job.

Shaine~

 

[iwire]

Re: Working Hot

Originally posted by wattey:
I assume he gives them the required training for the job they do (or indeed hires people with the given training)

How about it Jim is wattey right in his assumption?

Do you provide electrical safety training to your employees?

Is it documented?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Working Hot

He is close to what I'm saying.
Lets consider a company that does 20 track homes a week.They need installers ,not electricians.Low wages and the ideal man would have a year or 2 under his belt.We need him to ruff in small homes that have a circuit already drawn by a lead man.He really does not even need to know how electric works.His duty is to nail up a box ,run 14-2 from this box to the next box.Runs a 14-3 from fan box to 2 gang switch box at bedroom door,etc.As long as he can do this correctly and fast ,he will have a job with company (A).Company (A) needs say 12 men to ruff in 20 houses a week and those men are kept busy and never trim a house.Company (A) hires 7 men that only know how to trim.Now we train these guys to become journey men.Now at the end of say a year these men now are worth a lot more than what they started for .They then want more money than what company (A) can pay for installers,the men have more skills than what the company needs and they seek out company (B)that welcomes them at say 20% more pay to do custom homes.Company (A) starts all over training a new man.
The fact is at least in FL that 90% of the work is done my guys that are less than journeymen and journeymen find it harder and harder to find jobs.As they get more time under belt they become masters and find openings almost impossible because there pay has reached top end.
You might not like what i said or agree but down here that is a fact.
We don't need more chiefs than Indians.
If training on company money is paying off for you then keep doing it.Some men will stick with you for life but most go where the money is.I will gladly hire a green man that you trained.