wiring method

[fracas666]

On a job that I was working on someone before me roughed in a four gang device box using one four wire and one two wire metallic cable. The four devices that I installed in the box were single pole switches. I was told to use the white wire of the four wire cable as the power feed to each switch. The black, red, and blue of the four wire cable and the black of the two wire cable as the switch legs. The white wire of the two wire cable was capped off. The other end of both of the cables were in the same splice box which also contained the feed and the cables to the four loads. Although there may be better ways of terminating and splicing these cables, is this installation wrong? If so what is wrong with it?
Ron

 

[wireman3736]

Violation, all conductors are suppose to be in the same cable.

 

[fracas666]

I thought that the easiest fix for this would be to have the white wire of the two wire cable feed the same switch that the black wire of the two wire cable is carrying the load for. The white wire of the four wire cable would feed the other three switches.
Ron

 

[LarryFine]

I thought that the easiest fix for this would be to have the white wire of the two wire cable feed the same switch that the black wire of the two wire cable is carrying the load for. The white wire of the four wire cable would feed the other three switches.

Correctamundo.

 

[celtic]

We discussed a similar incident here:
[Violation]

In this thread it was noted that the neutral does NOT neccessarily have to be in the same cable:

I believe that 300.3(B)(3) allows it.

Have a look at that other thread ...

 

[LarryFine]

The neutral does not have to be. What matters is that each ampere in one direction is "equalized" by an ampere in the other, such as the white wire feeding a single switch and its return leg, or the white wire feeding three switches and their three return legs.

 

[iwire]

The neutral does not have to be. What matters is that each ampere in one direction is "equalized" by an ampere in the other, such as the white wire feeding a single switch and its return leg, or the white wire feeding three switches and their three return legs.

Larry what you describe is IMO good wiring practice but not always required by the NEC.

Read 300.3(B)(3).

Think of how K&T is done and now extend that to NM.

I am not recommending doing it that way only pointing out it can be done.

 

[LarryFine]

Larry what you describe is IMO good wiring practice but not always required by the NEC.

Read 300.3(B)(3).

Yes, but 300.3(B)(3) does not apply to:

. . . metallic cable.

. . . whatever that means; I took it to mean AC/MC.

Additionally, if the box itself is ferrous, there's another issue.

 

[wireman3736]

I thought that the easiest fix for this would be to have the white wire of the two wire cable feed the same switch that the black wire of the two wire cable is carrying the load for. The white wire of the four wire cable would feed the other three switches.
Ron

Since the conductors and the feed are all in the same junction box at the other end as you stated in your original post, I think this would correct the situation with out any question.

 

[iwire]

. . . whatever that means; I took it to mean AC/MC.

Very true, I did not see that part.

That certainly changes things.

Additionally, if the box itself is ferrous, there's another issue.

Not a problem, follow the rules in 300.20(B) as pointed out by 300.3(B)(3)

Easily accomplished by bringing both cables through the same fitting.

Again not recommending it but it is good to know all the 'legal' options.

 

[fracas666]

Thanks for all of your input guys. I did mean MC (metal-clad) for the cable. The boxes also were metal. The foreman and every other man on that job disagreed with me on this issue. Each classroom that was wired in this way was left spliced the way that I originally described. Until I posted here only one other electrician (the one that told me about this forum) agreed with me. I've probably asked about fifteen electricians before the post here.
Ron

 

[George Stolz]

You might need to have a meeting with the other guys and explain that in ferrous wiring methods, not having the currents cancel out will result in heating in the cables, which will at the least decrease their life span. At worst it could cause a fire. One member here (Hurk27) has actually seen smoke pouring out of metallic conduits from the inductive heating this causes.

I'd recommend fixing all of them before it's too late. I would not count on an inspector noticing this and doing your job (asking for it to be made right) for you.

 

[fracas666]

It's too late for me to be part of the fix. I left that company on December 4, 2005. Partly because of the ignorance of the others. The other part because it was a miserable job in the miserable city of Irvington, New Jersey. It's OK to be ignorant, but, not to accept the knowledge that one tries to give you to help you out of your ignorance makes one stupid. Stupidity I can't tolerate.
Ron

 

[wireman3736]

It's too late for me to be part of the fix. I left that company on December 4, 2005. Partly because of the ignorance of the others. The other part because it was a miserable job in the miserable city of Irvington, New Jersey. It's OK to be ignorant, but, not to accept the knowledge that one tries to give you to help you out of your ignorance makes one stupid. Stupidity I can't tolerate.
Ron

Ron I have found and it's unfortunate but most electricians out there just don't care, Just get the job done, beat the code if you have too,get paid and move on. I personally believe that more electricians have this kind of attitude then most people would believe although they wouldn't admit it, one question comes to mind is where are the inspectors that are suppose to be inspecting this work? Also glad you moved on, if you can't feel good about the job you did when you get home at night then it's just another job.

 

[LarryFine]

Just keep in mind we can't make the whole world in compliance, but we can do our part, one circuit at a time.





Did I really just type that?

 

[fracas666]

one question comes to mind is where are the inspectors that are suppose to be inspecting this work?

I work in northern New Jersey. In my opinion inspectors are a joke. They have their little things that they focus on and unless something else is obvious it falls right through their wide open cracks.

Ron

 

[infinity]

I work in northern New Jersey. In my opinion inspectors are a joke. They have their little things that they focus on and unless something else is obvious it falls right through their wide open cracks.

Ron

I would agree that some worse than others. Here are just a few of their mistakes.

1-Required GFCI receptacles to be installed in all of the bathrooms of a school for floor cleaning equipment although no receptacles appeared on the drawings.
2-Wanted shower trims installed over a hydromassage tub that had no provisions for a shower.
3-Wanted 18" of concrete over a conduit run between 2 floor boxes as listed in the article about burial depths.
4-Wanted the interior water pipe bonding conductor in a dwelling run 100' to the other side of the house to be connected within 5' of the entrance of the plastic well piping, instead of connected to the nearest metal water pipe 5' away.
5-Never even came to the house to inspect an above ground pool. Simply asked the homeowner over the phone what the EC did.
6-Asked why the were no ground rods installed on a service that had a CEE.

I could go on. But I will say this, I still prefer having a brief inspection vs. one that would last for hours where the guy is measuring how far the staple is from the box. I've read all sorts of horror stories on this forum about inspectors that go to that extreme. Given the choice I prefer it the way it is.

 

[fracas666]

I still prefer having a brief inspection vs. one that would last for hours where the guy is measuring how far the staple is from the box. I've read all sorts of horror stories on this forum about inspectors that go to that extreme. Given the choice I prefer it the way it is.

You would prefer it that way because you know that you are doing the right thing or if you are not you don't want it to be found out. As a consumer I would prefer that the inspector goes to the extreme of looking at everything. That's what I'm paying for. I haven't bought a home maybe I never will. If I ever decide to, it scares me to think of what might be hidden behind those walls.
Ron

 

[iwire]

Ron I would be very surprised if Trevor's installations are not top notch.

That said, if an inspector is on a mission they can always find some slight violations on anyones job.

I do not believe any electrician can always provide a perfect installation.

 

[wireman3736]

I know I haven't always done things right and probably never will, I do know that what I am doing I believe to be right. On the other hand I also know I've been told many things by an inspector and I know he wasn't right. But overall the inspectors I have dealt with are right 90% of the time or more, I usually learn from my mistakes and try to not make the same mistake twice. Thats all we can do.