why cut off the grounds?

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bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: why cut off the grounds?

If you read the sections concerning the grounding of faceplates and enclosures for switches over the last few code cycles, you can reason out the intent and need for switch grounding (bonding).

In the 96' code, if you mount a switch in an ungrounded box and the wiring method has no egc, a metal faceplate can't be used if in reach of conductive surfaces. Obviously, the intent is to ensure that a failure of the device or the terminations does not energize the plate which is accessible to persons. However, what happens later down the road when someone replaces the plastic plate with a metal one?

This is issue is considered in 99' code. 380-9 then required the the switch to be grounded by one of the approved methods. It still appears the intent is for providing a means to ground metal faceplates if they are installed. In this edition, the exception allows the use of a nonmetallic plate where grounding means don't exist instead of being the main rule.

The 02' edition didn't make a siginifcant change and nor has the 05' other than the exception now permits the switch to have gfci protection if a grounding means is not present.

So in effect, it appears the concern is with persons in contact with conductive parts while standing on conductive surfaces. At one point, the soultion was to simply not use metallic plates. Now, it appears we ground switches for the purpose of potential use of metal faceplates and provide alternatives to grounding the switch while still limiting the exposure to persons.

On a side note, this is a prime example of why the term grounding is not an appropriate term when we are actually describing bonding.
 

gschuman

Member
Re: why cut off the grounds?

I see this thread is already a few days old, but I'll toss in my 2 cents, too. I'm also in CA and I do rememeber from years ago, that since there wasn't a place to land the bare wire on the switch I was instructed to cut it off at the end of the sheath. In retrospect, I can't think of why they wouldn't just leave it for someone in the future. Nowawdays rule number one for the apprentices is "Slack is my friend!"

- Greg
 

gndrod

Senior Member
Location
Ca and Wa
Re: why cut off the grounds?

Might be an old throw-back to K&T habits or only the C10's in S. Cal cut em at the sheath. Could also be commercial guys wiring without EMT. :) Being originally from N. Cal and after K&T, lights are powered from the switch box to ceiling switch legs or half-hots since I remember. Bonding a grounding connection was code in 72, so cutting at the sheath was a violation then even without switch ground terminals. At least a half dozen shops I know of all stowed those bare wires.(That was in 3 different countys.)

rbj, Seattle
 

senti7rs

Member
Re: why cut off the grounds?

I believe alot of the workers are just too lazy,so they cut the ground so they can hurry up,get through, and go goof off the rest of the day.I also think it could be a careless boss who wants to hurry up because he/she can only think of money.So you put peoples lives and property in jeperty when you hire these contracters.My question is ,"how does the grounded neutral conductor provide a pathway for surge current when there is no grounding conductor available, just a hot and a neutral?Wouldn't the surge current flow through the appliance in order to be neutralized?
 
Re: why cut off the grounds?

Well... the 'surge current' (if your referring to a hot short or ground fault to ground) would go nowhere in the case of a non grounded receptacle since the neutral and ground are separate in any device or appliance. The path of least resistance would be through to the appliance metallic enclosure continuing to the individual, provided the individual was grounded and the path of least resistance.
The current wants to flow and it will find a path.

I agree, the cut off conductors are either ignorance or laziness.
I'm a contractor myself and very often would like to take "short cuts" but cant because of the liability.
Making the guys working for me understand the importance of the trade and the liabilities involved, is the hard part.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: why cut off the grounds?

By senti7rs
"how does the grounded neutral conductor provide a pathway for surge current when there is no grounding conductor available, just a hot and a neutral?Wouldn't the surge current flow through the appliance in order to be neutralized?
In a branch circuit the neutral circuit conductor should never be carrying fault current from the grounding back to the panel. It is the job of the grounding conductor to do this. Current seek's all path back to the source (service transformer) Not to earth! this is why it is important to have a path that is very low impedance. This is the function of the main bonding jumper. It bonds grounding conductors to the grounded conductor (neutral) so there is a low impedance back to the transformer. There are many myths that current try's to go to earth and this is not true. current only tries to return to source to complete the circuit path. Earth is only good for voltages above 600 volts. And the statement that current seek's the least resistance path is also false as current will seek all paths back to source.( this is how parallel conductors Carry double the current, not one hogging the current) With this thinking then you should see that a hot to strap contact at a switch will have no current flow until the path to source is connected. This could be by a person coming into contact with the metal cover plate :eek: or even the screws and a grounded (bonded) source. With out this connection no current will flow. Just like a bird on a wire since it is not touching any return path IE. another phase or the grounding. it will not be shocked. The same applies to a disconnected neutral. If you were to get in between the broken neutral you will have completed the path back to source and receive the full voltage of the circuit minis a few with voltage drop. Even with this neutral bonded to the grounding the load side of it will have the voltage that runs through the load from the hot through your body to the end of the neutral that runs to the panel. or any grounding near by.

[ January 27, 2005, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 

tstern

Member
Re: why cut off the grounds?

Dahl,
At what year do you think that these ground wires were cut off of the NMC? I started in this field some 35 years ago and it still haunts me how I was told to do that very same thing. At that time NMC was just coming out with a #16 bare ground wire in it. We had no idea what this was for because we already had a grounded conductor. Hot and ground: what else could one possibly need to serve a load? I remember how we stubbornly thought this extra wire as something that would never catch on with other electricians and we did not like to have to mess with it, especially in panels. Inspections were not in every community and education was merely hit and miss.
 
Re: why cut off the grounds?

Hi tstern.
The first time I came across this was probably sometime early 90's. Of course I was alot more experienced by then so maybe it had been done on jobs I was on in the past but I just never noticed it, or didnt know to notice it, know what I mean?

I saw the same thing in just the last couple months in fairly recent wiring done by others.

I've been licensed since '87 and have never been told or instructed to cut off the grounding conductor so your thought on it seems to me to be the most accurate so far.

btw, when did grounded NMC first come onto the market?
 

dana1028

Senior Member
Re: why cut off the grounds?

Originally posted by physis:
I worked for C-10 who told me not to ground switches because the inspector didn't care. Some of these guys will not tolerate you wasting their money.
Sam - I think a lot of CA contractors get the opinion that 'inspectors' don't care for a few reasons.
1. Some inspectors don't care.
2. Most jurisdictions in CA now have 'combination' inspectors - i.e. they are req'd. to make the inspections for ALL the trades. It is difficult enough for an inspector to be pretty good at one trade, however in CA he is req'd. to be knowledgable in a minimum 6 trades! (bldg., plumbing, mechanical, electrical, Title 24 Energy, and Title 24 Handicapped Access).
3. I've noticed most inspectors are the weakest in electrical (among the 4 actual trades); and even those who have a fair knowledge don't go back to school every 3 yrs. to get an update on the codes. CA is on the 1999 code (went into effect Nov. 1, 2002)... a little over 2 yrs.
4. The 'ground the switch' rule came with the 1999 code...so those who haven't taken update classes are not aware of this requirement.

In fact most CA electricians are not aware of this requirement.

I just recently started pulling all switch cover plates at final to check for this; 4 of 5 switches are not grounded. I had made a call at rough asking for grounding pigtails for switches and was told they 'made them up' at trim....well...4 of 5 aren't! So now I'm enforcing the pigtails at rough as a heads-up; I figure it's better to hassle them at rough than have them cry at final. (Great big alligator tears too!).
 

izak

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MO
Re: why cut off the grounds?

10 years ago in Little Rock, Arkansas, you couldnt buy a switch with a grounding screw in a supply house...

alot of people still refuse to ground switches here...
 
Re: why cut off the grounds?

I came across this again today.
Same case, ground conductor cut off as close as possible to the cable sheath right at where it enters the box.
It actually looked like a specific effort was made to make sure that conductor wouldnt be inside the box.
I think this is just ignorance and just goes to show the lack of responsibilty that exists in our society because someone at some time didnt ask the question what to do and blew it off as the right thing to do without finding out otherwise.

[ February 02, 2005, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: danl ]
 

gndrod

Senior Member
Location
Ca and Wa
Re: why cut off the grounds?

Hi dana1028, would you know if there is a reason CA hasn't updated for later NEC version? Just curious.

rbj, Seattle
 

dana1028

Senior Member
Re: why cut off the grounds?

Originally posted by gndrod:
Hi dana1028, would you know if there is a reason CA hasn't updated for later NEC version? Just curious.

rbj, Seattle
State politics - they try to adopt all the codes together...in CA this has been the Uniform Bldg. Codes which cycle at '97, 2000, etc....so they don't adopt the NEC till they adopt the others....

Step 1 - adopt the code
Step 2 - print the adopted code
Step 3 - code goes into effect 6 mos. after it is printed...so realistically you are looking at 2001 before the 2000 codes go into effect....that puts you 2 yrs. behind on the NEC.

The 2002 NEC was printed (with the CA revisions) in January, so will go into effect in CA around the first week of July.
 

shawn474

Member
Re: why cut off the grounds?

Originally posted by danl:

I think this is just ignorance and just goes to show the lack of responsibility that exists in our society because someone at some time didn't ask the question what to do and blew it off as the right thing to do without finding out otherwise.
I have been an electrician for many years.I disagree with this statement because I work with new apprentices on a regular basis.These (usually young,usually men) people are generally ignorant of electricity and the potential hazard of their methods when they first hit the job.People do what they are taught.These installers have not been taught proper methods,my opinion.There is not enough REQUIRED education in this industry.The State Contractor licensing was the worst thing to happen to this trade ever. (my opinion) The actual responsibility is squarely on the Journeyman's shoulders,he (she) is the person in the 'trenches' teaching the 'green' worker the trade.You guys calling people in the field 'lazy' really tick me off!You ever wire a house? Lazy people do not last long!Ignorant is an ugly word to describe someone who has not been taught proper wiring methods and is working hard,but it does fit the Webster's definition.You two guys who said the workers were saving the copper to buy drugs - SHAME ON YOU!! Accusing someone you don't even know of being a drug user is unacceptable.I (and many others) have to pee in a bottle sometimes 8 - 9 times a year!Mandatory testing,mandatory journeyman/apprentice ratios,mandatory journeyman refresher classes when the code cycle changes - that is the way to get this trade back on course,I have watched it go to crap in the last 25 years.Education,education,education and enforcement is the only thing that will ensure a safe installation.Would you let a surgeon operate on you who has not gone to school? Why would you not require schooling for some whose work may endanger you and your family?
 

rjfrankn

Member
Re: why cut off the grounds?

"Tek-tips.com/wiring closet" has this listed as a vantastic resource. It is!
What a "wonder"ful world, 'tis scary. When I started to get into my new old house, I wondered why the "Person Of Unknown Qualifications" wired the panel with all 3 NMC wires but not one single ground was connected on any of the 3 prong grounded outlets. Just coiled up and left to hang! Lighting fixtures were not bonded-some even had reverse N (interesting to change a light bulb), lighting and branch circuits (outlets) all together with at least 6 and more wires in a nut. What a nightmare. The "POUQ" was too lazy to cut them off-some would short to the Hot when you would plug in to the floppy outlet...by the way, my home inspector was a friend of the seller and came early so I would miss him.
 
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