Trying to ground a dish.No ground rod visible where the power comes onto the house.The meter and disconnect on a pole 30 ft from the house SCH 80 plastic comming out of the ground directly into the pannel. No visible ground wire comming out of the pannel only NM wire.The house is on a well with plastic waterline comming into the house.Where do you ground? This situation is common on older farm houses.
what is a proper ground for this
- Thread starter jacobsond
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petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: what is a proper ground for this
My guess is what you think is NM is actually some kind of SE cable.
Is the bare conductor on this cable connected to the metal of the disconnect switch housing?
My guess is what you think is NM is actually some kind of SE cable.
Is the bare conductor on this cable connected to the metal of the disconnect switch housing?
Re: what is a proper ground for this
NM ROMEX No bare conductor seen anywhere. SCH80 directly into the pannel from outside.No conductor visable to the water piping.Is it permissible to go into the pannel with #10 to the ground bar and route it outside to a ground rod and bond your dish there?
NM ROMEX No bare conductor seen anywhere. SCH80 directly into the pannel from outside.No conductor visable to the water piping.Is it permissible to go into the pannel with #10 to the ground bar and route it outside to a ground rod and bond your dish there?
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: what is a proper ground for this
I think we need additional information.
How many conductors are inside the Romex and what colors are they?
I am trying to understand your layout. Are you saying the wires coming from the utility land 30 feet from the house at a disconnect switch? If so how many wires come in from the utility.
Is there a ground lug inside this disconnect switch? If so where does the ground wire go to? Is it connected to any of the wires coming from the utility?
Does the romex come direct from the disconnect switch inside to a panelboard? Is there a ground bar inside the PB? Is there a neutral bar inside the PB? Are they connected together some how? Is there some kind of connection to a grounding electrode there?
How old is this installation? Is the PB a fuse box or circuit breakers?
[ November 07, 2005, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
I think we need additional information.
How many conductors are inside the Romex and what colors are they?
I am trying to understand your layout. Are you saying the wires coming from the utility land 30 feet from the house at a disconnect switch? If so how many wires come in from the utility.
Is there a ground lug inside this disconnect switch? If so where does the ground wire go to? Is it connected to any of the wires coming from the utility?
Does the romex come direct from the disconnect switch inside to a panelboard? Is there a ground bar inside the PB? Is there a neutral bar inside the PB? Are they connected together some how? Is there some kind of connection to a grounding electrode there?
How old is this installation? Is the PB a fuse box or circuit breakers?
[ November 07, 2005, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: what is a proper ground for this
Drive a ground rod at the dish location, connect to dish and extend to the pole where the sevice is located and connect to the service equipment enclosure.
Drive a ground rod at the dish location, connect to dish and extend to the pole where the sevice is located and connect to the service equipment enclosure.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: what is a proper ground for this
Jacob, the electrical grounds should be at the main disconnect, not at the house. The conduit feeding the panel should contain two hot wires (typ. black), a neutral (white), and a separate ground (bare or green).
Your panel is basically a sub-panel, since it's fed from a remote disconnect, which is why the neutrals are (or should be) separated from the grounds; they only connect to each other at the main disconnect.
It would not hurt for you to add a ground rod at the house, but you should use a solid #6 copper wire between the panel and the ground rod. This wire should be connected to the ground bus where all the bare wires land.
Then you can run your new ground wire to the same rod and attach it using a second ground clamp. You could split-bolt the dish ground wire to the new #6, but a separate clamp on the rod is actually preferable.
Jacob, the electrical grounds should be at the main disconnect, not at the house. The conduit feeding the panel should contain two hot wires (typ. black), a neutral (white), and a separate ground (bare or green).
Your panel is basically a sub-panel, since it's fed from a remote disconnect, which is why the neutrals are (or should be) separated from the grounds; they only connect to each other at the main disconnect.
It would not hurt for you to add a ground rod at the house, but you should use a solid #6 copper wire between the panel and the ground rod. This wire should be connected to the ground bus where all the bare wires land.
Then you can run your new ground wire to the same rod and attach it using a second ground clamp. You could split-bolt the dish ground wire to the new #6, but a separate clamp on the rod is actually preferable.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: what is a proper ground for this
it would seem to me that if he did this and there is no existing GE he would be adding one and would need to comply with all the rules.
OTOH, he is required to bond any new GE to the existing GE system. If there is no existing GE system, I don't see how he can legally install the dish.
[ November 07, 2005, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
is this legal if the disconnect is not already grounded?
it would seem to me that if he did this and there is no existing GE he would be adding one and would need to comply with all the rules.
OTOH, he is required to bond any new GE to the existing GE system. If there is no existing GE system, I don't see how he can legally install the dish.
[ November 07, 2005, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: what is a proper ground for this
I don't think it is his problem. The code provides several options for how to ground the the anntenna (dish) system. If it is indeed determined to be a structure with no grounding means, then all he has to do is drive the ground rod.
I don't think it is his problem. The code provides several options for how to ground the the anntenna (dish) system. If it is indeed determined to be a structure with no grounding means, then all he has to do is drive the ground rod.
Re: what is a proper ground for this
Being a low voltage guy I was not sure if its allowable for me to be inside the panel.This type of situation I think the panel in the house is more of a sub panel usually there is a main breaker at the pole along with the meter. The wires go underground from there.Since I have not opened the pannel I dont know what the feeder wires are yet. As long as its allowable for me to connect to the ground buss inside the panel it should not be a problem. The panel at the house has breakers so its not that old.
Being a low voltage guy I was not sure if its allowable for me to be inside the panel.This type of situation I think the panel in the house is more of a sub panel usually there is a main breaker at the pole along with the meter. The wires go underground from there.Since I have not opened the pannel I dont know what the feeder wires are yet. As long as its allowable for me to connect to the ground buss inside the panel it should not be a problem. The panel at the house has breakers so its not that old.
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Re: what is a proper ground for this
Your description, "...SCH 80 plastic comming out of the ground directly into the pannel", causes me to think that this is a mobile home. If so, you have the frame ground that you can catch perhaps.
Your description, "...SCH 80 plastic comming out of the ground directly into the pannel", causes me to think that this is a mobile home. If so, you have the frame ground that you can catch perhaps.
Re: what is a proper ground for this
not a moblie normal house usually 25yrs old or more with breakers installed as an upgrade in the last 10yrs.I went on a new house yesterday sch 80 directly into the pannel romex out to the rest of the house plastic water pipes no bare copper ground visible.There was a main breaker in the pannel I dont know where the POCO meter was it was not on this farmhouse but on the farmstead somewhere.Mounted the dish on a pole by the house.While trenching the wire to the house (about 24 inches from the house) I came across the ground rod buried about 6 inches below grade so I found my ground. My problem is when there is landscapeing around where the power comes in I dont really want to be digging up the customers flowerbed.I took the cover off the pannel and there was a bare ground wire going out right underground so it was not visible unless you dug or took the cover off the pannel. Even if I should dig for the ground rod its going to freeze up here soon so digging will not be practicle.So when no ground is visible is it allowable for me to connect to the ground buss in the pannel?I am a PLT tech an I dont want to create a violation by going into the pannel
not a moblie normal house usually 25yrs old or more with breakers installed as an upgrade in the last 10yrs.I went on a new house yesterday sch 80 directly into the pannel romex out to the rest of the house plastic water pipes no bare copper ground visible.There was a main breaker in the pannel I dont know where the POCO meter was it was not on this farmhouse but on the farmstead somewhere.Mounted the dish on a pole by the house.While trenching the wire to the house (about 24 inches from the house) I came across the ground rod buried about 6 inches below grade so I found my ground. My problem is when there is landscapeing around where the power comes in I dont really want to be digging up the customers flowerbed.I took the cover off the pannel and there was a bare ground wire going out right underground so it was not visible unless you dug or took the cover off the pannel. Even if I should dig for the ground rod its going to freeze up here soon so digging will not be practicle.So when no ground is visible is it allowable for me to connect to the ground buss in the pannel?I am a PLT tech an I dont want to create a violation by going into the pannel
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: what is a proper ground for this
You need to review your state or local statutes as to what the limit and scope of your work is. The NEC provides several options for grounding and bonding other systems to the electrical service grounding system. Any of these cab be used as far as the code is concerned, however you do need to be aware of what equipment you are or are not permitted to open / alter.
You need to review your state or local statutes as to what the limit and scope of your work is. The NEC provides several options for grounding and bonding other systems to the electrical service grounding system. Any of these cab be used as far as the code is concerned, however you do need to be aware of what equipment you are or are not permitted to open / alter.
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