What if the customer is a liar?

[GG]

I went and bid a trim out for a 4000 sq. ft. house and got the job. The guy I met with was the owner/GC and that was the last time I would ever see him again. He told me if I had any problems or needed anything then his right hand man, Mr. X, would take care of it and I needed to call him. No problem, I started the job and came really close to finishing. I noticed on the 2nd day of the trim out that the panel covers were missing, and I knew I had over looked that and that it was not in my bid for me to buy 2 new covers. So I called Mr. X and told him that the owner would have to buy 2 new covers ( the last electrical contractor took them with him when he pulled off the job, guess he was tired of these guys bs) and he told me "oh NO, the owner said he gave you money for those and that you said you would buy them". Well that was a lie. He also told me that he wanted a light added in a closet. I said no problem, $90.00. He said "oh NO, the owner said you 2 discussed that and you said that was part of your bid". That was a lie. They only owe me another $1200.00 for the job, I have already cleared $1000.00 on the job. Should I cut my losses and tell these liars to hire someone else or do they have any legal action they could take if I don't finish the job? I guess you can tell from all my ranting that Im fed up with these 2 guys.

[ May 25, 2005, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: GG ]

 

[bigjohn67]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

You should of put everything in writting before finishing the job of others. We turn down jobs such as this. We do not need the work that bad.

Take your loss and file a lien. But $1000.00 is not worth the time.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

You should have smelled that rat before you took the job.Why did the EC that started the job not finish it? Your in for a hard fight if your deal is not in writing.Also who will fix any problems found on hot check ? Learn from it and move on.Next time do some research at building department.See how many EC the guy has used.It is public record.Also ask to see any complaints in his file.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

Mr. X wasn't there when you dealt with GC.
Call his bluff. Don't supply covers. Don't install light.
Talk with the GC directly, this is who your verbal contract is with.
Get ALL money before final inspection. This is the kind of people who only understand playing this type of game.

Learn from this experience, or you will not stay in business.

 

[Sparky Mike]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

Reminds me of a story about an electrician I know who ripped a service off the side of a home with a chain tied to his truck bumper late one night.

I think the story has been inflated....but probably not by much.

Disclaimer: I can neither confirm nor deny this story.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

[QB] This is the kind of people who only understand playing this type of game.

It does lead one to beleive that this system of theirs has been "fine tuned,tweeked and rehearsed" for the given situation, in relying on the confusion factor.Just to beat someone out of a few pennies....

 

[GG]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

Well I'm going and pulling the permit today. It always feels like a big weight has been lifted from my shoulders when I finally decide enough is enough and drop a dead beat customer.

 

[infinity]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

So you're going to walk away and not collect $1200 dollars? I might have the minority opinion here but for the cost of a closet light and a few panel covers I would finish the job and move on. Even though the guy is a d@#$%*bag you should have had it all in writing. Without that it's your word against his and he's got your money. You could file a lien but this may only extend you aggravation. IMO you should finish, get your money, and never work for the guy again.

For the record here in NJ, state law says that you can't even ask for a final payment until after the final inspection.

[ May 26, 2005, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: infinity ]

 

[jeff43222]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

But how much is "final payment"? 5%? 10%? 50%?

We don't have such a law here, and I'm glad. I have jobs I finished in February that haven't been inspected yet. I currently have a job where final payment is contigent on passing final inspection (my own fault for having that clause in my contract), and I have to call the inspector's supervisor today since the inspector hasn't returned my calls. My contracts now say that final payment is NOT contingent upon completing final inspection, since I have no control over whether the inspectors are going to bother with actually inspecting my jobs.

[ May 26, 2005, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]

 

[infinity]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

It seems that NJ is very aggressive in consumer protection. Lots of contractors had been known to finish the job, take the final payment and then never return to correct violations. In answer to your question the state doesn't specify what the final payment amount is. I will usually state in the contract that the permit fees are not included and state that the permit amount will be the final payment. This usually amounts to a small potion of the job so I don't get hung up for a large sum of money while waiting for the final inspection.

[ May 26, 2005, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: infinity ]

 

[celtic]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

Originally posted by infinity:
It seems that NJ is very aggressive in consumer protection.

Very much so:
Home Improvement Practices Act

 

[dillon3c]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

Question:
Couldn't this be wrote in, as a deduction in the "loss column" in the venture profit loss statement of deductions, at year-end fisical taxes time. Or the lew of "operating cost expences" from the federal government in amount not exceeding ($3000),in the one year of deductions, and in the taking of a tax credit?

..And also in being perfectly legal, in doing so?

Noted: "It's been a while", hence my private contractor days..Can't currently elaborate accurately,in the Current Tax Business Laws of the federal exemptions status..Just a question mind you,aimed at the Small Business Contractors, operating out there in this forum..

Edited: yeh, got a story to fit with this,but must "hose-off" right now.Got a few appointments to attend to today..check back soon..

dillon

[ May 26, 2005, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]

 

[jeff43222]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

The payment I'm waiting on involves about 15% of the total owed to me not having to be paid until passing the final. It's about $1000.

We don't seem to have a need for a mandatory holdback rule like in NJ because consumers have other options to avoid getting ripped off. A consumer dealing with a licensed contractor can apply to the state to get compensation via the contractor's bond if the contractor doesn't finish the job.

 

[shelco]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

I would agree that the best thing to do is finish and get the money owed. Bill for the extra later and see what happens. It is not worth the fight.
Yes you can write it off as bab debt but that doesn't help the cash flow. It is your money and you deserve it.

 

[shelco]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

Removing installed equipment or devices because of non payment can land you in jail. Once it is installed you can not legally remove it. I have been tempted and have even suggested that I might do it. These people don't care.

 

[celtic]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

Originally posted by shelco:
Removing installed equipment or devices because of non payment can land you in jail. Once it is installed you can not legally remove it. I have been tempted and have even suggested that I might do it. These people don't care.

I disagree....
...a year back or so I had a fencing contractor installing fencing at my property. He did NOT complete the entire project - yes, new fence was installed, but old fence was not removed. He "thought" the job was "completed". When I refused to settle up until he completed the project, he came one morning and began removing the new fence. The police were called and promptly responded. The officers told me it was a "civil matter" and there "was nothing they could do". I protested that at a bare minimum what the guy had done amounted to trespassing. The Captian did not agree with me (but the 2 detectives did). I did take the fence guy to court - and we are still in litigation.

Point - Nobody went to jail for trespassing, theft, etc.

 

[growler]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

I agree with advice given so far. Get everything in writing and with an unknown GC get money up front. I have learned not to take over a job without talking to the EC that was there first. Some have excuses for leaving that didn't involve the job at all, death in the family or injury ( broke leg ) but most of the time its a bad GC.
Didn't want to pay for extra's or wanted more than agreed service. If it turns out that the electrician that started the job is a crook beware of the work quality. To take over a job for someone else should allways pay top money because your getting a pig in a poke. I looked at one not long ago that I think some young guy got taken on. I walked away, several local contractors gave it a pass but they brought in someone from out of town ( also new to business). Someone allways plays the sucker, you can only hope it's not you. Lots of luck in the future.

 

[shelco]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

My qoute about jail was just to make the point that you cannot legally remove if already installed. You probablly won't go to jail but it is definiltly illegal It is clear and on the books.
Sue him and you will win.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

Originally posted by dillon3c:
Question:
Couldn't this be wrote in, as a deduction in the "loss column" in the venture profit loss statement of deductions, at year-end fisical taxes time. Or the lew of "operating cost expences" from the federal government in amount not exceeding ($3000),in the one year of deductions, and in the taking of a tax credit?

..And also in being perfectly legal, in doing so?

Noted: "It's been a while", hence my private contractor days..Can't currently elaborate accurately,in the Current Tax Business Laws of the federal exemptions status..Just a question mind you,aimed at the Small Business Contractors, operating out there in this forum..

Edited: yeh, got a story to fit with this,but must "hose-off" right now.Got a few appointments to attend to today..check back soon..

dillon

It is tricky, but to answer you simply put, no.

You could deduct the cost of the installed materials, and any paid expenses, but that's about it.
You could not deduct such things as the unpaid profit from the job, from your Gross Revenue. The Fed. Govt. would not allow that to happen.


I would not do anything that was against the contract. But I wouldn't do anything more either. Not without more money.

As far as NJ is concerned, this GC (owner) does not seem to be the kind of person who cares about statutes and laws. Almost like they are expecting something bad to happen.
And that law seems to be referring to a Contractor-Consumer Contract, and not a Contractor-Contractor Contract, which this would probably be concidered.

The Owner is the GC, and I would bet a call to the Better Business Bureau would not do any good.

 

[tshea]

Re: What if the customer is a liar?

For 2 covers and 1 light, you are going to throw away $1200. Say that to yourself 3 times.

Then go install the stuff, "Work ordered by Mr. X" have him sign the work order. Bill Mr. GC, get your money and don't look back!

Do some simple math. Assume you make 10% profit on a job. You are throwing $1200 away. To recoup that amount you will have to do $12,000 worth of work.

Your call!

[ May 26, 2005, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: tshea ]