Ungrounded Outlets

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Tennessee
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Electrician
I have a question thats been killing me. I get these inspection reports for when a homeowner is selling stating they need their plugs grounded. I get so many various answers on this that I dont know what to do anymore. Can I simply identify each plug stating there is no equipment ground or do I need to put a ground fault in place which in reality it really serves no actual purpose. Please help me with this. I am in Tennessee.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
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Semi-Retired Electrician
You don't have to do anything if the HO doesn't want you to. The ungrounded receptacles can stay unless someone has changed them to a grounded receptacle without adding an EGC.
If you do install GFCI receptacles or breakers, then you do have to put the little stickers on that say "no equipment ground" and "GFCI protected outlet".

Welcome to the Forum!
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
1. Any installation that was compliant may remain, unless a major renovation is taking place (local rules vary).

2. GFCI-protected non-grounded grounding receptacles should not have EGCs connecting them to each other.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
need to put a ground fault in place which in reality it really serves no actual purpose.

A GFCI measures the current difference between the hot and neutral. There will no difference unless current is leaving the circuit and shocking someone. No ground wire is needed for a GFCI to work so it serves a very useful purpose.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Install the GFCI protection as required as it's safer than using a receptacle with no EGC.
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
If you are not adding receptacles to the circuit the rule about not interconnecting the equipment ground wipers of each receptacle to each other may not come into it but if you replace the receptacles with the grounding type, and the pathway for the conductors is via the old original, General Electric (GE) BRONX (BX) factory, Armored Cable (AC) the only way to avoid connecting those grounding pin wipers to each other is to use Isolated Ground Receptacles. If the circuit is run in the original non metallic cable; often called rag wire for it's woven cloth jacket; then you can use regular receptacles because Cloth covered non metallic sheathed cable that does not have an equipment grounding, or the earlier much smaller bonding conductor, in the cable will not cause an accidental conductive pathway between the Grounding pin wipers of the different receptacles.

[Do you know how BX got that name? Everything shipped from a GE plant had a 2 letter code on it to indicate the GE factory at which it was made. That is why every single roll of the original armored cable, which was a patent protected product of the General Electric Company, had a wire affixed card stock tag that had the Bronx factory's 2 letter "BX" code on it. Which is easier to say? Armored Cable or "BX." Which was easier for a new apprentice to identify when you sent them to get you another roll of cable. They could look for the tiny paper UL listing label or you could say "Go down to the supply cache and get me a roll of BX." The BX tag was hard to miss. Type MC Metal Clad cable was devised as a competitor to the then patented AC cable. I don't know if Type MC cable was ever made without the separate Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) but in ~50 years in the craft I never saw any.

In order to assuage the fear that the Home Inspector's report may cause for your perspective buyer client you could install Combination Ground Fault, Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters. Many of the Home Inspectors know that the existing receptacles are exempt from any newer Equipment Grounding Conductor rules but they write it up for 2 reasons. One is to cover their but against the cause of tort action in a civil court suit called "Failure to Warn of Known Danger." The other reason is that a part of their job is to give the buyer as many clubs to beat down the selling price with as they can find. The buyer will demand that the hazard be addressed prior to closing on the sale. The sellers tell them that doing that is so expensive to be out of the question because the sellers have also bought the home inspectors assertion that the receptacles must be grounded for occupant safety which is not in fact a requirement of any addition of the National Electric Code. Now the buyers will offer to accept the ungrounded receptacles in return for a reduction in the selling price to cover the upgrading themselves. If the seller gives in to that demand they will forfeit a lot more money than the problem actually cost to make code compliant. If the seller knows the actual rules they simply say that those receptacles were legal when they were installed and they are legal now but since your so concerned we will bring them up to the present Electric Code rules for such receptacles. That home inspector is not coming back unless he is paid to do another inspection. At several hundred dollars a pop that is most unlikely. The buyers see new receptacles with the Ground Pin port and all is well. The seller has spent relatively little money and kept their word. They brought the receptacles up to current code for such receptacles. The color or type of

I had a service call were the family selling the house was really anxious as to how much this would cost them. I installed the required GFCI breaker and then asked the question that honesty made me ask for the sake of both parties. "If you would like I can spend the rest of the minimum 4 hour service call making these receptacles as safe as they could possibly be." Only the living room outlets were ungrounded because previous remodeling had brought the others into full compliance with the requirements for new construction. I told them they would have to get the baseboards reinstalled but they still wanted the grounding done at the cost I was able to offer them. The basement below was partially unfinished which gave me the access to run the Equipment Grounding Conductor. I removed the 3 baseboards which were beneath the receptacles and ran UL listed flat copper braid 12 American Wire Gauge (AWG), that I already had in the van, from box to box stapled behind the baseboard below the bottom of the drywall. One hole into the basement between joists, measure off the braid needed, run it back to the water pipe were it came in from the water utility's main, buff the pipe to bright copper with Emory cloth tape, cover bright portion with copper antioxidant paste, install the clamp and done. That left the circuit in better shape than the ones in the detached garage that the home inspector hadn't mentioned but were far more dangerous due to the conductive concrete floor. I threw a GFCI receptacle in there and drove away with a paid work ticket and a clean conscience.
 

Eddie702

Licensed Electrician
Location
Western Massachusetts
Occupation
Electrician
@hornetd

You seem to know a lot about the old BX so a couple of questions if you don't mind.

From what I understand, the old BX with no aluminum ground strip was use prior to about 1959 and was used with 2 wire non grounding receptacles. I have seen may houses in our area built in the mid to late 50s that have both types of BX in the same house.

Although the receptacles (two wire) did not have a ground connection obviously a short between a hot and a box for instance would hopefully trip the breaker or fuse.

What has always bugged me is i know the older BX can be a poor ground but what harm (if any) is installing grounding receptacles with the older BX wiring method?

Also I have never seen in any code book I have seen that differentiates between the two styles of BX AC cable or any mention that the older style is not approved for grounding other than speculation and hearsay.

Fire away if I am wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I have a question thats been killing me. I get these inspection reports for when a homeowner is selling stating they need their plugs grounded. I get so many various answers on this that I dont know what to do anymore. Can I simply identify each plug stating there is no equipment ground or do I need to put a ground fault in place which in reality it really serves no actual purpose. Please help me with this. I am in Tennessee.
Those inspection reports are nothing more than a tool that buyer and seller can use for price negotiations. If owner fixes the deficiencies on the inspection report then the seller has less things to use for negotiating lower purchase price when it comes to some the safety aspects as to the construction, electrical, plumbing, HVAC of the home.

The buyer can offer to pay a lower price and either fix those deficiencies or even just take it as is with the deficiencies. Lenders and insurance companies may take some that information into consideration and demand deficiencies be fixed, though it possibly still can be buyer or seller that fixes them.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
While no one complies with this rule, take a look at 250.114... that is a list of things that are not permitted to be connected to a circuit that does not have an EGC, and the installation of a GFCI for that circuit has no effect on the requirement in 250.114.
406.4(D)(2)(c) even has an informational note sending you to 250.144.
 

g3guy

Member
What has always bugged me is i know the older BX can be a poor ground

Yes, but excellent conductors at times.

Picture those old, I called them 'build it yourself' metal boxes, that you could take
apart to build different configurations.

These barely big enough boxes to get a receptacle into, were the reason the old timers wrapped tape around the receptacles and even switches.

More than once I managed to short the hot to the box. I can't imagine what I could accomplish now.:eek:

Well, now we have the original strip lights.:giggle:

That BX would glow a beautiful muted red until the fuse melted and since someone had put a penny under the fuse,
well now we can add a smoke effect. Years of dust accumulation fueling the display.

How boring it must be now with all these NEC 'safety' rules.:ROFLMAO:
 
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
Electrician
The fact that a GFCI does not require an EGC to operate is what makes them safe.
Question: Does a GFCI circuit breaker require an EGC to operate?

Thank you Tom. For some reason I was under the impression they only detected faults through ground and served very little purpose ungrounded. I appreciate the re focus on that. I researched more to bring myself back in line. Thank you man..
 
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
Electrician
Thank you all for the insight. Very much appreciated. I guess I just really over thought the situation for some reason and yall helped get me back on point. I appreciate you all!
 
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