Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

[inspector_guy]

When I inspect a house I use a little tester that I plug into all of the outlets. My tster has the button on top to push in to see if the GFCI's will work. 90% of the homes I inspect have no GFCI's anywhere (even some of those built in the last few years have no GFCI's or GFCI breakers). I have tested some GFCI's that do not trip when I push the button, these are on remodeled homes with the old type two wire romex- no ground wire.
How do I know if these breakers will really work or not? I have tested a few GFCI's on grounded systems where the GFCI did not trip, just the 'test' and 'reset' buttons worked- and other GFCI's on grounded systems did trip with a push of the button on the tester. Forgive me for not using the correct terminology, I've gotten hung up in my own slang. Any idea's or comments are appreciated in advance. Takk, Joe.

 

[charlie]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

The circuitry in the GFCI will test the device and it does work. The way GFCI's work is a coil is around both the outgoing phase conductor and the return grounded conductor. In the event of the current being unbalanced by more than 6 ma (4 to 6 ma range), the GFCI will trip. The problem is that the current will be going through someone or something for a period of time while the device trips.

I believe (I am not sure of this statement) a GFCI that has no grounding conductor in the circuit will still test by using it's internal circuitry and trip the device. If it works, it is good to go. I would like someone to verify or refute my last statement.

 

[racraft]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

A GFCI on a two wire circuit will still work properly. That is to say, it will protect the user and it will trip the test button of the circuit.

However, in such a case a handheld GFCI tester as described above will not work. These testers require an equipment ground which is used to complete the test circuit.

However, a hand held tester that can be grounded to a separate ground will work. These type need to be grounded to a good ground source.

 

[inspector_guy]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

Thanks for the info. So does the lack of grounding cause my tester not to trip the GFCI? Is there any other means to be for darn sure sure that it will work, other than relying on the internal circuitry?

 

[charlie]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

If the internal circuitry will trip the GFCI. it will work . . . period. External testers are not required.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

The new GFCI's, at least the Leviton's, WILL trip via a handheld tester. I have not tried the GFCI feature of the new AFCI tester on this set-up.

A side note with the new AFCI tester the GFCI test button will not trip a GFCI if it is in close proximity to the main panel. I have not had a chance to test near a "sub" panel.

Mike P.

 

[hillbilly]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

Recently a housing inspector "found" several "defective" GFCI receptacles in a house that I have done work on. In the past I had replaced several 2 prong receptacles in the kitchen and baths with 3 prong GFCI's. The house is 70+ years old and there are no branch circuit grounding conductors. Apparently the inspector used the same type tester as the previous post, because the recpt's test OK by pressing the test button. I don't think he knew this replacement was OK and allowed by the electrical code.

 

[roger]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

Like Mike says and I have heard (can't pesonally vouche for this) the new GFCI's do trip with an external type tester, the old styles will not even with $100.00 + testers.

Hillbilly, did you mark these receptacles as to not having a grounding conductor? This can cause confusion in an inspection of any type.

Roger

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

A GFCI receptacle, new or old, can't trip with a plug in tester unless there is an EGC connected to the GFCI. There is no path for the test current to flow on without an EGC. When testing GFCIs with the internal test button, you must test for voltage on the GFCI receptacle after you push the test button. A GFCI receptacle that has the power connected to the load terminals will still have power on the receptacle even when the button shows that the device has tripped.
Don

 

[eprice]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

Originally posted by inspector_guy:
...I have tested a few GFCI's on grounded systems where the GFCI did not trip, just the 'test' and 'reset' buttons worked- ...

If the wiring includes a grounding conductor and the tester will not trip the gfci, but the test button on the gfci works, the gfci is probably wired incorrectly with the supply wired to the load terminals. If so, the tester plugged into a downstream receptacle will trip the gfci. This situation must be corrected as the gfci is not affording protection for loads plugged into the gfci receptacle.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

Don

You may be correct. I will check the GFCI when I do the finish. I know the load has no egc but can not remember if the line does.

Ignore my previous post until I can verify.

Mike P.

 

[inspector_guy]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

Thanks for all of the information. From now on, I will check for current after trip the GFCI. I did test one GFCI once that did not trip with my little yellow tester, but the same tester used on another receptacle caused it to trip. Now I know why. I'm not suppose to take the covers off of switches and receptacles, but I inspected a house today where some of them were already off. The receptacle was rated to 15 amps, there were no 15 Amp breakers in the panel. Most of the original branch circuit wiring in the panel was aluminum and twelve guage or smaller. One breaker had three 14 ga. wires screwed to it. I advised the buyer to have a professional electrician survey the entire system and make the neccesaary repairs.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

inspector_guy,

The receptacle was rated to 15 amps, there were no 15 Amp breakers in the panel.

This is not a problem as long as the 15 amp receptacle is not a single contact device. See 210.21(B)(1).
Don

 

[gwz2]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

If you are not allowed to remove covers, what do you inspect?

That the cover is safe by being installed "Square With the World" ?

A distinguished gentleman ( EE ) once challanged a group of us inspectors ( years ago ) " What do you inspect when you just check the Squareness of cover and NOT check the BOWELS of the Electrical Equipment " ?

 

[hillbilly]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

Yes Roger, I marked them GFCI Protected/No equipment Ground. I always use the stickers that come with the receptacle. These were installed about 3 years ago and I guess that the homeowner got tired of looking at them, either that or they got washed off. Maybe they should require the information branded to the cover before it is "glued on"..

 

[inspector_guy]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

When I do a full home inspection, the electrical portion is basically this: Do the receptacles work? Are they grounded or not (many homes have newer grounded type outlets on old two wire systems), is there any knob-and-tube wiring? If so, is any of it still hot? Are there any open junction boxes? Wire splices in the attic not in a junction box? Are any of the recticles scorched? How many pennies have been shoved into the fuse box sockets? how may 30 amp breakers have 14 ga branch circuit wiring? Is the mast ready to fall off of the house? Will the weather head fall off if the wind blows too hard? Yesterday I inspected a panel that had 10 ga aluminum wire on a 50 amp breaker. A subpanel in a garage had a 20 amp breaker with three 14 ga wires tied to the screw. Very professional work. The switch box for the AC compressor had no deadfront cover. The list is endless. I don't do load calculations, but I preparing to return to school for additional education in electricity. I don't put a lever on the outlet covers to see if they are plumb or 'square with the world'!

 

[hurk27]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

Inspector guy:

is there any knob-and-tube wiring? If so, is any of it still hot?

Be carful as this would be treading on grandfather laws and the NEC even still allows for the addition of circuits extending off knob&tube type wiring.

Remember this, did the wiring meet code at the time of instalation? that is the question to ask. and if it did does it still meet the safty standered that it would of when it was installed? another words is it still in good enough condition to be safe from fire/shock hazard.
the other thing to look for is has it been modified? and if it has does the modification meet the code at the time.
This will require knolage of the NEC of the past and time or date of the wiring and the changes. which can be done by looking for clues like the type of wire (cloth, no ground's etc...) the type of panel and when they were used.
I agree your job is a required one but there must be some knolage of what need's to be looked at as there are many hidden things that can burn down a house and if you dont know to look for them you will miss them. grounding is a biggie as many older houses were not prperly grounded and sub panel having the neutral bonded to the grounds. but if you stick around here you will pick up on stuff like this.

 

[inspector_guy]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

Exactly! That's why I come here everyday! Too learn! The more you learn, the more you realize how little you really know. I don't want to pass along any bum scoop to anybody. Too many 'generalist' home inspectors like myself are content to pass there required tests and leave it at that. I want to know as much as I can. Bonding and grounding is one of my weaker areas. One house I inspected had a ground wire (6ga copper) running from the meter and one from the panel and they both were clamped on to the same ground rod directly below. The next house had no ground line from the meter and a 6ga aluminum from the panel to the supply side water line on the water heater. I talk to every electrician i can when I find them on the job on new homes being built. I receive a lot of contradictory information. Fuse boxes present special situations too. I inspected one early 1960's house where all seemed up to snuff with the exception of oversized fuses (30 amp fuses to 14 ga. branch circuits). I'll keep coming back here and reading as many posts as I can and try to filter it all through. Takk, Joe B.

 

[karl riley]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

I don't doubt that you get contradictory advice from electricians about grounding since very few in my experience understand the reason for grounding to the earth, and why bonding to the service neutral is the true safety connection.

It would really be worth the money to get Mike Holt's book and video on grounding and bonding, since it is conversational and easy to follow.

Karl

 

[tom baker]

Re: Ungrounded GFCIs', will they work?

Karls advice is perfect. I have instructed three code cyles of grounding classes. Mikes material based on the 2002 NEC is simply outstanding and far better than anything else on the market.