Troubleshooting - perhaps this could use its own section

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megloff11x

Senior Member
Troubleshooting can be a black art. Being shorter of memory in middle age, I resort to documenting past incidents, and if I can remember that I've seen something like this before, I go through my notes.

Many problems are straightfoward (it's unplugged), but some are very confusing, with many layers of the onion to peel away to solve.

I'm wondering if we shouldn't have a place to post problems encountered, how you solved the mystery, how you would have gotten to the truth sooner were it not for..., and how to prevent.

My own observations on such issues are:

1. The wilder ones are often solved fastest by the neophytes, who are not carrying the baggage of preconceived notions that come with experience.

2. Too often new guys with little expertise get the "John Wayne Swimming Lesson" (throw the boy into the pond so he can swim or drown to make a man of him) on an important problem. This is discouraging and self-confidence crushing when a more senior colleague has to bail him out when he fails as expected.

3. How "zero tolerance for mistakes" leads to cover ups and misleading information that delays the resolution. If you run a restaurant, you'd best tolerate a dropped burger now and then or your people will be scooping them up and serving them to your customers, until the health inspector catches on and you get fined and lose those customers. Better to lose half a spool of romex or some fittings than have your apprentice hide a bad job and the building burns down.

4. You need to be totally honest, and going back to #3, you need to be able to fail once in a while without fear of demotion, termination, etc., even if it's a bad failure. You may have been embarassingly wrong, but the mistake will be repeated if covered up and buried. This is not to say that a perpetual screw up shouldn't find a new career. A good boss gives his subordinates a chance to fail in smaller ways, but doesn't let them cause a train wreck.

5. Some problems are best solved by methodical flow charts or check lists. Others require creative thinking "out of the box." Others require a group effort.

6. And further back to #3, folks often omit or gloss over details that they judge unimportant, but are actually critical. You need to ask the right questions to determine this if you didn't see it happen or do all the tests yourself.

7. No matter how good and knowledgeable you are, you will get stumped or do the wrong thing at some point.

Consider the apocryphal story of how vapor lock was discovered. A man claimed that when he went to get Vanilla Ice cream on a hot day, his car would have trouble re-starting, while if he got an esoteric flavor, it was fine. The symptom (ice cream flavor starting dependance) masked the real symptom (extra time needed to get an uncommon flavor from the back room) and the root cause (time for condition to go away).

A well sorted and indexed book of short case studies would be an invaluable reference. Throw in a few chapters on when and why your measuring instruments will lie to you, and it would sell better and certainly be more useful than most references.

Matt
 
megloff11x said:
Troubleshooting can be a black art. Being shorter of memory in middle age, I resort to documenting past incidents, and if I can remember that I've seen something like this before, I go through my notes.

Many problems are straightfoward (it's unplugged), but some are very confusing, with many layers of the onion to peel away to solve. WTF??

I'm wondering if we shouldn't have a place to post problems encountered, how you solved the mystery, how you would have gotten to the truth sooner were it not for..., and how to prevent.

My own observations on such issues are:

1. The wilder ones are often solved fastest by the neophytes, who are not carrying the baggage of preconceived notions that come with experience.

2. Too often new guys with little expertise get the "John Wayne Swimming Lesson" (throw the boy into the pond so he can swim or drown to make a man of him) on an important problem. This is discouraging and self-confidence crushing when a more senior colleague has to bail him out when he fails as expected.

3. How "zero tolerance for mistakes" leads to cover ups and misleading information that delays the resolution. If you run a restaurant, you'd best tolerate a dropped burger now and then or your people will be scooping them up and serving them to your customers, until the health inspector catches on and you get fined and lose those customers. Better to lose half a spool of romex or some fittings than have your apprentice hide a bad job and the building burns down.

4. You need to be totally honest, and going back to #3, you need to be able to fail once in a while without fear of demotion, termination, etc., even if it's a bad failure. You may have been embarassingly wrong, but the mistake will be repeated if covered up and buried. This is not to say that a perpetual screw up shouldn't find a new career. A good boss gives his subordinates a chance to fail in smaller ways, but doesn't let them cause a train wreck.

5. Some problems are best solved by methodical flow charts or check lists. ???WTF???Others require creative thinking "out of the box." Others require a group effort.




Consider the apocryphal story of how vapor lock was discovered. A man claimed that when he went to get Vanilla Ice cream on a hot day, his car would have trouble re-starting, while if he got an esoteric flavor, it was fine. The symptom (ice cream flavor starting dependance) masked the real symptom (extra time needed to get an uncommon flavor from the back room) and the root cause (time for condition to go away).

A well sorted and indexed book of short case studies would be an invaluable reference. Throw in a few chapters on when and why your measuring instruments will lie to you, and it would sell better and certainly be more useful than most references.

Matt

You lost me! Long Post, late on a hot friday, too big of words used, Attention deficit Disorder and a tee time in a half hour. I think your asking for a Trouble shooting Section? I'll go with that! Good luck
 
Matt
I like what you wrote. Sometimes it is difficult to try to put in words how one feels, especially on a site like this site, you did a nice job.

I agree it would be a good reference section to have some of the trouble shooting posts all in one area.
 

tonyi

Senior Member
My best trouble shooting "technique" for the hard ones when working solo is to just walk away from it for a while. Its easy for your brain to get "locked in" on thinking it must be something that isn't necessarily so.

With a few pairs of eyes working something the "lock in" effect doesn't happen as quick it seems.
 

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
Pierre C Belarge said:
Matt
I like what you wrote. Sometimes it is difficult to try to put in words how one feels, especially on a site like this site, you did a nice job.

I agree it would be a good reference section to have some of the trouble shooting posts all in one area.

Ditto Matt!
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
I agree, good post. I disagree with some of it, but it's a nice walk through the park of our business. I think a Troubleshooting Section of the forum would be an asset, but I can envision it's use not living up to the post that would have started it.

As I see it, troubleshooting is just an extension of one's knowledge and experience. It's not something that can be honed on it's own, IMO. Learning how things tick (and fail to tick) is experience.

A database would not help anyone, as I see it. If it works for you, cool, I don't mean to knock it. But for the public at large, the membership of this forum, I doubt as many people would find answers in the past as would find answers by asking questions today.

JMO,
George
 

MAS2006

Member
Location
Missouri
First rule when trouble shooting after someone. Listen to what they say they have already checked as ok. Look there first 7 of 10 times they caused it themselves.:rolleyes:
There is no substitute for a good scope and knowing how to use it.:)
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I always start troubleshooting with a few questions about the symptoms. If it's an intermittent problem, I get the customer to try to repeat the conditions while I'm present. I may see a clue they failed to mention or see.

Top tip: Plug an extension cord into a known-properly-wired receptacle, and carry the female end around with you. Now you have a known reference hot, neutral, and ground against which to test with a solenoid-type tester.

For example:
Complaint: a receptacle has no power. But is the problem an open hot or an open neutral? Is the hot still hot? Where is the last still-good outlet on the circuit? If neither the neutral or ground is grounded, the cable itself may be damaged.

Troubleshooting is a process of elimination. There are possible causes, and you must eleiminate each, one by one. Even when the guy ahead of me tells me what he's already checked, my brainstill requires me to see it for myself.

I am the troubleshooter here.
 
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George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
LarryFine said:
Even when the guy ahead of me tells me what he's already checked, my brain still requires me to see it for myself.

I am the troubleshooter here.
I'm the same way. It infuriates my co-worker to no end (he's edgy soemtimes), but I have to verify for myself the "givens", and keep going.

Too many chefs spoil the soup. :)
 

e57

Senior Member
It could be a forum on it's own....

It could be a forum on it's own....

Troubleshooting a "Black Art", theres a myth to dispell right off before continuing. Not long ago I had someone tell me that "troubleshooting can not be taught" I could not disagree more... I was taught this skill! I was taught it right after therory. And was taught in a method that broke it all down in simple rules and approches while I was in the military. At the end of the course I had to break down every single operation of a 60kw generator verbaly by describing the operation of an AC and DC schematic of the machine from start and run, and voltage regulation and contact of the load. Describing the potential of each connection, switch, soloniod and relay. And the same with every rectifier circuit, SCR and zenor diode.

After that, troubleshooting branch circuits and lighting is nothing.... By following some simple approches you can sort out a problem very easily.

Here are some:
  • Visualize the circuit, it's operation, and its layout. (Draw out a line diagram or simple schematic)
  • Eliminate the obvious...
  • Determine the nature of the problem. Short, open, improper voltage, over-current.
  • Short circuit - Follow the short, determine an ohm value at the source of the circuit, break the circuit down and follow the lowest value along each branch.
  • Open - Follow the open from the device back to the power source. After checking the obvious, and some mapping of the circuit, follow each element of the circuit that is supposed to provide that circuit with the potentials it needs to operate.
  • Over-current, calculate the each load, and check what they should be against what they are.
  • Improper voltage is a bit more complicated, but with a good understanding of the basics will allow you to understand the inputs and outputs of problem-soving that.
 

noxx

Senior Member
e57 said:
Troubleshooting a "Black Art", theres a myth to dispell right off before continuing. Not long ago I had someone tell me that "troubleshooting can not be taught" I could not disagree more... I was taught this skill! I was taught it right after therory.


I'd have to land my opinion somwhere between here and the original poster. I worked industrial trouble for quite a while, and while the "simpler" systems can be pretty easily dissected with a single step-by-step method, sometimes you can find yourself in a control enclosure the size of my kitchen with no documentation. No schematics, no termination lists, nada. At that point, to me anyway, the job seems to become quite a bit more intuitive unless you plan on creating new documentation from scratch.

In short, yeah if you know how it works, shooting a problem can and should be simple. Once you get off the map however, it's anything but.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
e57 said:
Not long ago I had someone tell me that "troubleshooting can not be taught" I could not disagree more...

Well I can not disagree more with the thought that everyone can become an effective troubleshooter.:)

You can teach anyone the mechanics of playing an instrument.

You can teach anyone how to read music.

That does not mean that everyone can become a musician we would want to hear.

Perhaps I can agree that when the person knows the circuits or when full documentation is available that most people could troubleshoot by simply following directions.

However when there is little or no info troubleshooting is indeed a bit more than being 'taught' a certain set of procedures.

I was sent last Sunday to make a smoke evacuation system work that was never completed. I only had documentation of the smoke panel...not any of the connections to VFDs, two speed contactors or single speed contactors. I did not have any drawings of how the facilities energy management system controlled these items under normal conditions.

To shorten it up unless you want to start from scratch some ability to picture in your mind how all the items interrelate is necessary.

BTW I did let some smoke out.....nothing to expensive. :D
 

e57

Senior Member
Bob, I love the analogy... :)

But yes....draw it out yourself..... It is not Beethoven for dummies, or does it have to be a Rembrandt by numbers. Just be able to visualize it for yourself to understand. I have worked on plenty of equipment without a schematic, and the first thing I do is get a piece of paper out of the truck when I get the meter out. Start a drawing..... It doesn't have to be the whole thing, but a portion to start.

When I'm roughing a job, I lay out my guys with line diagrams. And I say for instance, "Sideshow Bob, (I have a guy who looks like him. ;) ) look at this.... for anything to work here, you need a "?" and an "N", ya know what that spells? It spells ?N, it spells ON!" Depending on what voltage you're looking for you may need a ?A,?B,?C or ?A,?B,N, or ?A,?B,?C,N or any other combination to work.... Follow all the lines back and make sure you have a "?" and an "N", or whatever you need, all the way to the panel.....

It works the same way with reading schematics or wiring diagrams, if you can read, you can draw one.... It doesn't need to be a work of art. If it helps you efficiently understand the circuit, take the time to draw one. It may even save the next guy some time and trouble if you leave it there....

Anyway, not trying to be provocative, but if an "Electrician" cant troubleshoot, maybe he is just an "Installer". IMO an Electrician should be able to design, and engineer an operational circuit, and likewise be able to reverse design, and engineer an operational circuit.

Not saying that I have not been STUMPED before! But how else would I ever learn anything new..... It's part of the challenge.... And why I havent sought out an office job.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Mark we will have to remain in friendly disagreement here.:)

Maybe your lucky and you employer only gets the cream of the crop.

My experience tells me that not all can troubleshoot.

Proof of that to me is all the jobs I am sent to where in house maintenance electricians or our own electricians have already wasted time trying to fix a problem with no luck.

Yes I admit I am very cocky about my abilities in this regard. :D

Bob
 

Jljohnson

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
I've got to go with Bob on this one, not all who are perhaps terrific electricians have the proper analytical skills required to be a successful troubleshooter. We have people working for us who can layout and wire million dollar+ projects perfectly but may not be the best choice when you get a service call with oddball symptoms. As far as the OP is concerned, a troubleshooting section would be welcome as faras I am concerned. One never knows when someone else's experience can save him untold amounts of time/money.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
hardworkingstiff said:
I'm with Bob too.

I've seen people "troubleshoot" and fix the symptom, but miss the problem.

Me, too. One of my guys repaired a partially-dead receptacle circuit by re-feeding the dead half.

He no longer works for me.

I'm like Bob, cocky though we may be. After an hour or so, they call me, I ask a few questions, and give them the solution.

Knowing the hardware is only half of electrical work. When I was a helper, I knew more theory than anyone I worked under, because of my electronics interests.

I also did a service change for an uncle when I was 15. (He had to do all the driving!) He still lives there and has never had a single problem (I'm 51 now (Yikes!)) . The only thing I'd do differently today is drive a second ground rod.
 
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e57

Senior Member
Looks like I'm alone here.... But, I'll say this.... Why bother when they can call someone to bail them out?

And I will stand by the fact that it is not rocket science, and that half the battle is realizing that it isn't. And that the same analytical skills required to build a circuit of a certian degree of complexity, are the same required to trouble-shoot that same circuit, or one of equal complexity.

I was taught, I have taught others, there are methods and proceedures. There are tips and tricks. After that, most of it is childs play*. Rough estimate would be 50% device failure, 30% connection failure, 10% brain teaser, 2-5% lied about it ever working in the first place, (They are out there!) or never worked correctly due to poor design. And 0-5% you could pull out some hair.... The way I see it 90% is not that hard.... 80% of that is as simple as "Voltage goes IN, it does not come OUT."

Say you owned a company, who do you call then? Another Electrician?

(*but if you throw a computer into the mix it is a different ball game.)
 

e57

Senior Member
Some atricles on the subject....
http://www.bin95.com/electrician_training.htm#START

http://www.maintenanceworld.com/Articles/pdma/Electrical-Troubleshooting.htm

http://www.maintenanceworld.com/Articles/plantmaintenance/Electrical-Troubleshooting.htm

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_electrical_ladder_drawing/index.html

Note if you look through them, they all have simular methodology.

An operator interview
A familiarization of the equipments true operation (What it is suppposed to do)
A familiarization of the problem (what it is not suppossed to do)
A generalization of the problem
Are the nessesary circumstances for the thing to operate present? Where are they not present?
An isolation of the problem through testing (And there are some general rules I mentioned earlier for that)
A confirmation by an appropriate method, be it replacement, by-pass, further testing or the repair itself.
A resolution, the actual repair...
And most importantly asking why it happened in the first place, there may be other things wrong....

I swear once you have the right tools, in terms of methods and proccess, it is about as easy as playing a game of hearts with your mother-in-law..... Ore poker with your dad. Every game is different, but have the same rules more or less.
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
e57 said:
Say you owned a company, who do you call then? Another Electrician?

Maybe or maybe you just struggle through and waste days of time instead of hours or minutes.

My point has been there are some people are simply gifted in troubleshooting others struggle.

Like I pointed out before you can teach almost any skill to almost any human. That in no way means they will be proficient at it.

To say all people can be taught to be proficient troubleshooters is to me like saying all licensed drivers can be NASCAR drivers.

Why not?

We all know how to turn left and where the gas is.:)

What I am trying to say is this.

1)Many people can be taught the methods and can make their way through it.

2)Some people do not have to be taught they can just do it naturally...that is how their brains are wired.

3)And finally there is a small percentage of people that simple can't troubleshoot at all no matter what level of instruction they are given.


I don't see why anyone would assume electrical troubleshooting is a skill we are all born with anymore than saying all we are all born with the ability to play poker.

I can troubleshoot, I can't play poker to save my life.

It's not that it is 'rocket science' and it's not that people have not tried to teach me the game. I am just not good at it I make poor choices.

Troubleshooting efficiently requires the ability to make choices of the direction you want to pursue.

Being able to tell that the info you are being given is not accurate, being able to ignore minor problems and keep working on the real problem.

No I don't think troubleshooting is rocket science but it is a skill no more or no less than being able to take the pot in a poker game. :)

JMO, Bob
 
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