Residential Main Breaker Question

[norcal]

It is still readily accessible per the definition if it has a standard lock. As far as I know, there is no code restriction on placing a lock on the operationg handle of the emergency disconnect.

Firefighters normally carry bolt cutters?

 

[infinity]

It is still readily accessible per the definition if it has a standard lock. As far as I know, there is no code restriction on placing a lock on the operating handle of the emergency disconnect.

The definition of readily accessible does mention keys but then the IN seems to indicate that the intention of a lock wouldn't apply to a residential installation.

Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being
reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without
requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to take
actions such as to use tools (other than keys), to climb over or
under, to remove obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders,
and so forth. (CMP-1)
Informational Note: Use of keys is a common practice under
controlled or supervised conditions and a common alternative
to the ready access requirements under such supervised condi‐
tions as provided elsewhere in the NEC.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Leave the breaker in the panel as a service disco. Unless you want the added work of changing it all up.

If he puts an overcurrent protective device outside, that becomes the service disconnect.

The definition of readily accessible does mention keys but then the IN seems to indicate that the intention of a lock wouldn't apply to a residential installation.

Note is not code and there is nothing in the code that can be read as prohibiting locks on the required emergency disconnect. I would never install an exterior disconnect without locking it in the on position.

 

[infinity]

Note is not code and there is nothing in the code that can be read as prohibiting locks on the required emergency disconnect. I would never install an exterior disconnect without locking it in the on position.

I agree, on my own home I've gone as far as to say I would bolt or weld the door closed and disable the handle mechanism inside.

 

[kwired]

Firefighters normally carry bolt cutters?

Pretty good chance there is at least one bolt cutter or other tool that can cut said lock in one of the fire trucks when they show up. They don't each individually carry bolt cutters at all times though.

They do a variety of tools so they can extract people that are trapped in many different situations.

 

[SceneryDriver]

Firefighters normally carry bolt cutters?

Bolt cutters: usually on the truck, yes. If they don't a Halligan Bar will do the trick:

36" Halligan Bar

Our "Made in the USA" halligan bar is the perfect design for easy forcible entry, ventilation, or overhaul. It is manufactured with 100% American materials and American craftsmanship. Every halligan bar is drop forged with high carbon steel and...

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SceneryDriver

 

[sparky1118]

If he puts an overcurrent protective device outside, that becomes the service disconnect.

He was already planning on doing that. His question was does he have to change the panel to a main lug panel or can he keep the existing panel. He can keep the existing panel and separate the grounds and neutrals.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Leave the breaker in the panel as a service disco. Unless you want the added work of changing it all up.

Sparky, I read your comment as saying the breaker in the panel is still the service disconnect after a breaker has been installed outside. My comment was only saying that the breaker in the panel is no longer a service disconnect.

 

[sparky1118]

You’re absolutely right it would no longer be a service disco. It would be a disco for the panel if ever needed for some reason.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Sierrasparky]

I would suspect companies will shortly come up with a meter socket with non fused disconnect, with the appropriate labels. If it was not a "service disconnect" then thats a savings for a retrofit (avoids issues with GEC)

What is the issue with using a meter main. Why would a meter with disco need to be made?

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

What is the issue with using a meter main. Why would a meter with disco need to be made?

I would guess one reason for installing a meter with a disconnect only is to avoid installing an SER to the main panel location.

 

[Open Neutral]

Would the PoCo lock be on the switch handle, or on the cabinet access hasp?
I'd assume the latter.

 

[kwired]

Would the PoCo lock be on the switch handle, or on the cabinet access hasp?
I'd assume the latter.

presuming you are talking about a disconnect ahead of a meter...possibly a lock on both if you can't secure both with a single lock.

They don't want easy customer access to unmetered conductors and they don't want power removed from line side of meter - their system may give them trouble notifications if it gets shut off because the smart meter is no longer sending data that is expected.

 

[shortcircuit2]

What is the issue with using a meter main. Why would a meter with disco need to be made?

Another reason to use a meter with disco is on a upgrade in an older installation with existing 3-wire dryer and range branch circuits.

 

[Jerramundi]

If he puts an overcurrent protective device outside, that becomes the service disconnect.

I'm just getting up to speed on this issue, but I would have to argue that 230.85 (3) clearly and explicitly allows for "...circuit breakers on the supply side of each service disconnect..." as long as equipment is SUSE rated.

Putting a breaker outside does NOT necessarily MAKE IT the Service Disconnect, but maybe I'm dreaming....

 

[kwired]

I'm just getting up to speed on this issue, but I would have to argue that 230.85 (3) clearly and explicitly allows for "...circuit breakers on the supply side of each service disconnect..." as long as equipment is SUSE rated.

Putting a breaker outside does NOT necessarily MAKE IT the Service Disconnect, but maybe I'm dreaming....

in the past it kind of did, this new emergency disconnect rule however seems to allow it to not somewhat optional in some cases.

They seem to mostly be interested in being able to interrupt service from outdoors even if it is not a service disconnect.

I can see there being local jurisdictions that end up saying if it contains overcurrent protection that they will consider it to be the service disconnect - NEC doesn't really state that though.

 

[Jerramundi]

in the past it kind of did, this new emergency disconnect rule however seems to allow it to not somewhat optional in some cases.

They seem to mostly be interested in being able to interrupt service from outdoors even if it is not a service disconnect.

I can see there being local jurisdictions that end up saying if it contains overcurrent protection that they will consider it to be the service disconnect - NEC doesn't really state that though.

That's exactly my fear. I'd prefer a non-fusible safety switch so there could be no argument, but the 200A 3R ones get pricey.

 

[kwired]

That's exactly my fear. I'd prefer a non-fusible safety switch so there could be no argument, but the 200A 3R ones get pricey.

Does that price offset the cost to run the GEC to the new location and/or install an EGC because you are now feeder instead of service conductors?
Maybe somewhat a wash most cases.

 

[Jerramundi]

Does that price offset the cost to run the GEC to the new location and/or install an EGC because you are now feeder instead of service conductors?
Maybe somewhat a wash most cases.

The cheapest I found a Non-Fusible 200A Gen. Duty Safety Switch for was like $300.00
That's a pretty significant increase from what just a standard 1 position meter socket (no breaker) runs, ~$50-$75

Either way, this new Emergency Disconnect requirement is going to increase the cost.

I suppose you could argue that the need to install an EGC is offset by that.
But I wouldn't have to install a wire type EGC, I could just rely on the RMC conduit.
The big issue would be now having to separate the neutrals and grounds at the previously main panel.
EGCs could still land there... then either run a wire type EGC to the new Service Disco w/ the feeders or rely on the conduit.

 

[Jerramundi]

@kwired Either you are correct. The AHJ could argue that the service disconnect location has been changed, although I think 230.85 (3) makes it clear that you can have CB's on the supply side of the Service Disco without them becoming the new Service Disco. But, as usual, up to the AHJ... and if he/she decides to make that call, I'm SOL.

230.85 (3) clearly references CBs on the supply side... but again, up to the AHJ