Receptacle Above Ceiling

[sockie1924]

I remember seeing something I cannot remember if it was on this site or not it was a illustration of receptacles and ebu's mounted above a lay-in ceiling. Does anyone know where I can find this illustration or code section? I am only asking because I am currently working on a project where Receptacles have been specified above the lay-in ceiling, If I remember correctly this is a violation?

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

Well, the receptacles aren't a violation, but plugging things into them is. See 400.8

 

[sockie1924]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

thanks

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

Anytime

 

[cs409]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

a lot of them above drop in ceilings,,,,as Ryan stated,,,,not for use......but they are nice for service people doing service work only. if you read 400-8,,,,,

 

[cs409]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

i think i smell a problem with this issue.....

Ryan,,,,, check this out and give me your input please.

drop ceiling.....you have a camera installed in a globe ceiling insert....aka the globe replaces the ceiling tile...... this camera unit comes with a 5ft #14ga cord with plug...can it be plugged into the a receptacle above this dropped ceiling?

 

[sockie1924]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

Well they were not for service they were for specifice pieces of equipment. The project is a office space with four floors in the medium conference rooms they have markerboards with a camera to capture the images and have the ability to send the image to a printer on the adjacent millwork however the specifications from the IT/AV Consultant require a duplex receptacle and a data connection located 6" above accessible ceilng, outside all conference / meeting rooms is what they call a room wizzard that is requested to be powered from a duplex receptacle and a data outlet once again located 6" above the ceiling. I remember seeing a illustration on this I think on the site or ec&m I cannot remember. Some people in my office say don't worry about it if the inspector does not write it up don't worry. But I thought it was the consulting engineers to know the code and have everything installed correctly. But hey I am just the low man on the todem pole here so I guess it does not really matter my two cents...Thank for all your help.

 

[jerryb]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

There is always more than one reason for a receptacle above the ceiling. Article 400.8 deals with flexible cords and cables but the actual receptacles is not a part of that subject. In several projects we are asked to provide a duplex receptacle above the ceiling for a security contractor. They use these receptacles to plug in their 6 or 12 volt power supplies for motions sensors, cameras, phone systems, etc. The code and inspectors seem to turn their head to these types of installations.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

All I'm saying is that the code section I cited doesn't really let you plug things into an outlet above the ceiling. I'm not saying one way or the other if I would red-tag it

 

[jim dungar]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

Ryan,

400.8 does not prevent everything from being plug connected above a ceiling. The power supply/transformers for low voltage equipment are usually 725 Class 2 circuits, so their output cabling is not cover by Chapters 1 through 4. If these units do not have a line side power cord they would not be subject to any 400.8 restrictions.

Personally, I still have a hard time reconciling 400.7(8), as related to ceiling tile mounted equipment (i.e. cameras and "drop down" projectors), with 400.8 which is subservient.

 

[tom baker]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

Jim Chapters 1-4 apply generally unless modified by chapters 5-7. I am wondering does Art 725 modify the rules in Art 408?

 

[sceepe]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

You may be looking for this: http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/NEC-HTML/HTML/Article-400-II~20040606.php

this is a newletter from mike holt (which is why you may have thought it was on the code forum) that shows a picture of a office with cord and plug device above a lay in ceiling and a big "violation" label

I will try to add the picture but I don't know if it will work. If not, go to newsletters on Mike Holts page and the select NEC and choose the article 400 june 6th one.

I too was somewhat surprised that this practice violated code. I've seen cord and plug devices pluggged into outlets above ceilings about a million times.

 

[jim dungar]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

Tom,

I do not think 725.61 considers CL2P/CL3P cables the same as the flexible cables in 400.4, it does allow them to be installed in plenums and other environmental air spaces. And, 725.5 directly mentions suspended ceiling tiles.

However, my point was supposed to be that 400.8 could not be used to prevent a plug in power supply/transformer (with load terminals) from being installed in a receptacle above a drop in ceiling.

I still have a problem with using 400.8(5) to disallow the installation of appliances (utilization equipment) specifically allowed in 400.7(A)(8)

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

Jim,
What part of 400.7(A)(8)specifically permits those appliances above a drop ceiling?
Don

 

[hbendillo]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

Doesn't that picture show a receptacle installed above the suspended ceiling and a cord going THROUGH the ceiling from equipment below the ceiling? I think this is quite different from installing a receptacle above the ceiling for say a recessed video projector. Plug-in type equipment requires a plug. One of the issues that was addressed was the idea of using a plug and cord connection as a subsitute for permanent wiring. I think that if we installed receptacles throughout the space above ceiling and plugged in all of our fluorescent lay-ins, that would be a violation.

 

[iwire]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

Originally posted by hbendillo:
Doesn't that picture show a receptacle installed above the suspended ceiling and a cord going THROUGH the ceiling from equipment below the ceiling? I think this is quite different from installing a receptacle above the ceiling for say a recessed video projector. Plug-in type equipment requires a plug.

Unfortunately the NEC prohibits all article 400 cords regardless of the equipment they serve from being located in a suspended ceiling.

400.8 Uses Not Permitted.

400.8(5)Where concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above suspended or dropped ceilings

This seems pretty clear no cords above suspended ceilings.

That said we do it all the time for the drop down projectors that Jim D. has already mentioned. :roll:

 

[cs409]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

forget 400-7(a)(8)...although the def. of appliance doesn't list all! but if u wanted to use 400-7(8) then an air purifier "may or could" fall under this area....

but 400-7(a)(3), 400-7(a)(6), all open the door for OK use of the cord plugging (400-7b)into the outlet above a drop/suspended ceiling etc....

if you read 400-8, its intent is to stop the use of cords running all over the ceiling in place of what should be permanent wiring,,,,cords coming out of ceiling such as you see at department stores and office areas where they have set up some new display or office desk and need power..aka the orange extension cord coming out of ceiling!

 

[jim dungar]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

Don,
If the appliance is manufactured as a drop in ceiling tile with a flexible cable as it's power feed, how can it not allowed by 400.7(A)(8)?

Iwire,
400.8 specifically says it is only applicable if the use is not allowed in 400.7.

To me, this is one of the clearest parts of the NEC, if a flexible cord is allowed by 400.7 then no part of 400.8 can be cited. So IMHO, an inspector needs to state how 400.7 does not allow the use before a red tag is issued under 400.8.

 

[iwire]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

IMO the only part of 400.7 that might apply to a drop down projector would be 400.7(8) and even that IMO is a stretch, often these units are secured in a way that prohibits ready removal for maintenance and repair.

That said I have never seen an inspector in this area give us a hard time about these units or the other items that end up in the celling.

Another item we often install outlets for above dropped ceilings are small plug in condensate pumps for AC units.

Bob

 

[fc]

Re: Receptacle Above Ceiling

What do you think the reason for 400.8 (5) is? I think because flexible cords dry out and start cracking. This code rule make it hard for some things like camera, projectors etc. I find most small AC units for office space have a condensate pump in the ceiling and I tell the AC contractors they have to supply a pump that's hard wired.
Maybe the cord companies should come up with one that does not dry out and maybe a change should be put in that all receptacles above ceiling that have a flex cord plugged into it be on Arc-fault circuit interrupter.