I've been finding that, at least when work is busy, it can be more cost effective to just buy the <$100 items to test than to spend more than an hour or two evaluating on paper before purchasing. Now I have way too much random parts sitting around.While the Emphoria web site is light on actual details (for instance, it mentions bluetooth in a single place but without any useful info) if the devices perform it looks like it'll do the job. And it's hard to beat the price.
Because I tend to over-analyze things, I'll probably spend some more time reading about the device. Then just buy one and start fiddling with it.
Power Monitor Products
- Thread starter Open Neutral
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winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
Here, if you want to go down the rabbit hole of cheap local energy monitoring:
community.home-assistant.io
gist.github.com
If you do go down this rabbit hole, let me know. I might follow along
-Jon
Emporia Vue
I have been looking into whole house monitoring solutions and the Emporia Vue looks like a decent device. According to this video that shows the inside it is running an ESP32 chip. Anyone who has this hardware interested in working to get it supported with something like ESPHome or Tasmota...
community.home-assistant.io
Setting up Emporia Vue 2 with ESPHome
Setting up Emporia Vue 2 with ESPHome. GitHub Gist: instantly share code, notes, and snippets.
gist.github.com
If you do go down this rabbit hole, let me know. I might follow along
-Jon
zbang
Senior Member
- Location
- Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
Some more research....
Most of the under $300 systems will only work with that company's servers for both logging and viewing (including the Emphoria and Eyedro). Iammeter does use "cloud" servers but also makes linux software available to run your own. It's hard to tell what Efergy can do.
A few claim RS485 or ModBus connections in addition to ethernet/wifi
Pretty much all of the makers have terrible web sites and little useful info, no surprise there (iammeter is the exception).
Not all of them have voltage inputs, so they're just guessing at the power consumed. Some, are pass-thru devices, some have detached CTs.
Schneider's unit appears to be Sense in a different color.
For my use, which requires being able to sometimes operate without Internet connectivity, the pickings are slim when staying under maybe $500 (I'd love a Fluke, but until someone else pays for it....) The Iammeter with a RaspberryPi may be the closest option at the moment unless I feel like larger-than-I-want code development effort.
My search continues.
Most of the under $300 systems will only work with that company's servers for both logging and viewing (including the Emphoria and Eyedro). Iammeter does use "cloud" servers but also makes linux software available to run your own. It's hard to tell what Efergy can do.
A few claim RS485 or ModBus connections in addition to ethernet/wifi
Pretty much all of the makers have terrible web sites and little useful info, no surprise there (iammeter is the exception).
Not all of them have voltage inputs, so they're just guessing at the power consumed. Some, are pass-thru devices, some have detached CTs.
Schneider's unit appears to be Sense in a different color.
For my use, which requires being able to sometimes operate without Internet connectivity, the pickings are slim when staying under maybe $500 (I'd love a Fluke, but until someone else pays for it....) The Iammeter with a RaspberryPi may be the closest option at the moment unless I feel like larger-than-I-want code development effort.
My search continues.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
I had no idea that type of equipment could be so inexpensive. I'd spend more than that on two CTs alone for the CLICK I use at home.Here, if you want to go down the rabbit hole of cheap local energy monitoring:
Emporia Vue
I have been looking into whole house monitoring solutions and the Emporia Vue looks like a decent device. According to this video that shows the inside it is running an ESP32 chip. Anyone who has this hardware interested in working to get it supported with something like ESPHome or Tasmota...Setting up Emporia Vue 2 with ESPHome
Setting up Emporia Vue 2 with ESPHome. GitHub Gist: instantly share code, notes, and snippets.
If you do go down this rabbit hole, let me know. I might follow along
-Jon
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
These are low grade CTs, not suitable for precision metering. Coupled with a low end A/D conversion system.
But for the use case (figure out what is going on in your house so that you can understand your energy usage), they are more than sufficient.
As I mentioned, I was gifted a 'Sense' unit, and it has discovered three loads that are important for me to monitor: my oil burner, my fridge, and my freezer.
I don't know how accurate the watt estimates for these loads are, but the run time reports seem to be pretty good. That is really all I need to know. If my freezer is suddenly on continuously for an extended period of time, I know something is wrong. The hour total for my oil burner tells me how much oil I've used.
Knowing that lights have been turned out, or a water heater is running continuously when water isn't being used, or some other event is actually quite useful info, even if the raw watt readings are off by 10%.
I suspect that the sense uses more accurate CTs and better A/D conversion than the Vue, but that is only to get enough info to be able to guess individual loads. The Vue makes up for this by having cheap CTs on each circuit.
-Jon
But for the use case (figure out what is going on in your house so that you can understand your energy usage), they are more than sufficient.
As I mentioned, I was gifted a 'Sense' unit, and it has discovered three loads that are important for me to monitor: my oil burner, my fridge, and my freezer.
I don't know how accurate the watt estimates for these loads are, but the run time reports seem to be pretty good. That is really all I need to know. If my freezer is suddenly on continuously for an extended period of time, I know something is wrong. The hour total for my oil burner tells me how much oil I've used.
Knowing that lights have been turned out, or a water heater is running continuously when water isn't being used, or some other event is actually quite useful info, even if the raw watt readings are off by 10%.
I suspect that the sense uses more accurate CTs and better A/D conversion than the Vue, but that is only to get enough info to be able to guess individual loads. The Vue makes up for this by having cheap CTs on each circuit.
-Jon
Open Neutral
Senior Member
- Location
- Inside the Beltway
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- Engineer
Agree on how fact-free the "datasheet" is. Does it even measure watts?
Wrote them to see what they'll say.
Wrote them to see what they'll say.
Open Neutral
Senior Member
- Location
- Inside the Beltway
- Occupation
- Engineer
re: Emporia:
Got a response.
So I'll be looking at this, given how TED might as well be dead.
Got a response.
- Does show true watts.
- Can handle net totals with line and solar inputs
- Can merge multiple units into one display.
- No public API but did provide a link to multiple open source projects.
Community Forum Post: [URL]https://community.emporiaenergy.com/topic/api-to-pull-data/[/URL]
Open Source Projects:
[URL]https://github.com/helgew/emporia-downloader[/URL]
[URL]https://pypi.org/project/pyemvue/[/URL]
[URL]https://github.com/magico13/ha-emporia-vue[/URL]
[URL]https://github.com/jertel/vuegraf[/URL]
So I'll be looking at this, given how TED might as well be dead.
zbang
Senior Member
- Location
- Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
From what I understand, the Emporia still needs to talk to the mother-ship although you can grab data from that.
I just ordered the Iammeter product, which while it does have a cloud service it also integrates with HomeAssistant and a couple of other open things which you can run locally (and IIRC on a Raspberry Pi). The spec sheet says it also does Modbus-RTU so that's an option here, I don't mind rolling my own software.
Further updates as the occur
I just ordered the Iammeter product, which while it does have a cloud service it also integrates with HomeAssistant and a couple of other open things which you can run locally (and IIRC on a Raspberry Pi). The spec sheet says it also does Modbus-RTU so that's an option here, I don't mind rolling my own software.
Further updates as the occur
zbang
Senior Member
- Location
- Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
As promised.....
Received the Iammeter thing today. Build quality seems OK, and it came with three split 200a CTs prewired onto the box. Took me maybe 15 minutes to get into it's WiFi (via WiFi) and set that onto my home network. Another 30 minutes later I was pulling readings out of it over the network using a small program (via HTTP). The documentation is spare but OK. Haven't yet tried setting up their cloud service or one of the open-source monitoring systems like Home Assistant.
Since I won't have an RS485 converter for a few days, the ModBus RTU part won't get any exercise before sometime next week.
BTW, this also looks interesting- https://www.iotawatt.com/
Received the Iammeter thing today. Build quality seems OK, and it came with three split 200a CTs prewired onto the box. Took me maybe 15 minutes to get into it's WiFi (via WiFi) and set that onto my home network. Another 30 minutes later I was pulling readings out of it over the network using a small program (via HTTP). The documentation is spare but OK. Haven't yet tried setting up their cloud service or one of the open-source monitoring systems like Home Assistant.
Since I won't have an RS485 converter for a few days, the ModBus RTU part won't get any exercise before sometime next week.
BTW, this also looks interesting- https://www.iotawatt.com/
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
220312-0759 EST
See my comments on the TED 1000 and 5000 at:
This discussion is from a long time ago, but gives you some useful information on these two systems.
Actually both systems were quite useful. I liked the 1000 because it provided 1 second resolution.
If you wrote your own software to receive the data you could process that data in any fashion desired limited only by the limitations of the basic source data.
In general I don't think long term continuos monitoring is needed. I see it more as a research tool. My power company smart metering is more than adequate for continuous monitoring.
Current transformers generally create errors as the signal power factor approaches 0.
.
See my comments on the TED 1000 and 5000 at:
BETATRONICS®, TED 1000 & 5000 Power Line Communication Data Structure, Electrical Measurement, Power, Voltage, Power Factor, Volt-Ampere, Problems, The Energy Detective
TED 1000 & 5000 Power Line Communication Data Structure.
beta-a2.com
Actually both systems were quite useful. I liked the 1000 because it provided 1 second resolution.
If you wrote your own software to receive the data you could process that data in any fashion desired limited only by the limitations of the basic source data.
In general I don't think long term continuos monitoring is needed. I see it more as a research tool. My power company smart metering is more than adequate for continuous monitoring.
Current transformers generally create errors as the signal power factor approaches 0.
.
zbang
Senior Member
- Location
- Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
The TED systems seems to be fine, but are also unobtainable now AFAICT (there are 3-phase systems for over $600, nothing else on their web site).
Also noted on the CTs, but if the PF is even approaching .5 on what I'd be watching, there are greater issues than simple consumption. (My needs is basic consumption logging, not research. I'm not trying to build a Fluke or AEMC.)
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
220312-1452 EST
zbang:
I am inclined to think there are a lot of TED 1000 and 5000 systems out in the world that people are not using. After one does some research on their home there is not much to learn by constantly monitoring their consumption. And you are correct that using Google I do not find any TEDs listed.
It is not clear to me what you want to learn.
The Kill-A-Watt EZ is a rather good device for measuring individual loads, and it is inexpensive, about $30. This works well with all phase angles down to near zero. Current is measured with a resistor, and no current transformer. Thus, it can work well at low power factors. The reviews on it are not good. Lots of failures. I have not had this problem, but I only load them for a short time.
A sample result using the Kill-A-Watt EZ is: --- Test is a 120 V 1/3 HP induction motor with no added mechanical load. Starting current peak value about 50 A for about 6 cycles. Kill-A-Watt EZ measurements on unloaded motor ---
155 W, 630 VA, 0.25 PF, 122.3 V no load source voltage, 121.5 V running. 155 / 630 = 0.246 PF, good correlation with 0.25 .
Although I can continuously monitor my whole home power consumption, or any part, I do not. I have in the past, and the current transformers for the TED 1000 stay in place.
I have no intention of selling anything. So ignore anything at the start of the reference, just look at curves PE1 thru PE3. These derive from TED 1000 and have a resolution of 1 second. See https://beta-a2.com/energy.html
I consider TED 1000 to be a tool, and this capability to be a research tool, not something to monitor continuously. DTE power information is more than adequate for normal purposes.
If I want detailed information on a particular load, then I can move the current transformer to that load.
There are some applications where continuous monitoring may be useful.
.
zbang:
I am inclined to think there are a lot of TED 1000 and 5000 systems out in the world that people are not using. After one does some research on their home there is not much to learn by constantly monitoring their consumption. And you are correct that using Google I do not find any TEDs listed.
It is not clear to me what you want to learn.
The Kill-A-Watt EZ is a rather good device for measuring individual loads, and it is inexpensive, about $30. This works well with all phase angles down to near zero. Current is measured with a resistor, and no current transformer. Thus, it can work well at low power factors. The reviews on it are not good. Lots of failures. I have not had this problem, but I only load them for a short time.
A sample result using the Kill-A-Watt EZ is: --- Test is a 120 V 1/3 HP induction motor with no added mechanical load. Starting current peak value about 50 A for about 6 cycles. Kill-A-Watt EZ measurements on unloaded motor ---
155 W, 630 VA, 0.25 PF, 122.3 V no load source voltage, 121.5 V running. 155 / 630 = 0.246 PF, good correlation with 0.25 .
Although I can continuously monitor my whole home power consumption, or any part, I do not. I have in the past, and the current transformers for the TED 1000 stay in place.
I have no intention of selling anything. So ignore anything at the start of the reference, just look at curves PE1 thru PE3. These derive from TED 1000 and have a resolution of 1 second. See https://beta-a2.com/energy.html
I consider TED 1000 to be a tool, and this capability to be a research tool, not something to monitor continuously. DTE power information is more than adequate for normal purposes.
If I want detailed information on a particular load, then I can move the current transformer to that load.
There are some applications where continuous monitoring may be useful.
.
zbang
Senior Member
- Location
- Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
Maybe, but they're not on ebay
This is not a "learning" project, my immediate need to log how much energy some equipment at my building uses and without spending a ton of $$. Later I will use the setup to monitor energy consumption at some of the outdoor events I work.
Well, there will be two learning aspects- to use a raspberry-pi to collect the data and the other is to do it using a modbus rtu connection. Otherwise, I've got what I need but think some other people might be interested in this. (Perhaps I'll start a new thread....)
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
220313-2107 EDT
zbang:
I believe the original TED 1000 used the Circus CS5461, see the following for the data sheet ---
integrated circuit.
This is a very capable device. Probably made in very large quantities for power meters. This or a similar chip should exist.
Build your own power monitor.
Appears to be about $4 at DigiKey.
.
zbang:
I believe the original TED 1000 used the Circus CS5461, see the following for the data sheet ---
CS5461A-ISZ PDF
Part #: CS5461A-ISZ. Description: Single Phase, Bi-directional Power/Energy IC. File Size: 757.94 Kbytes. Manufacturer: Cirrus Logic.
pdf1.alldatasheet.com
This is a very capable device. Probably made in very large quantities for power meters. This or a similar chip should exist.
Build your own power monitor.
Appears to be about $4 at DigiKey.
.
Last edited:
SSDriver
Senior Member
- Location
- California
- Occupation
- Electrician
Update on my Emporia. I noticed the amperage readings were quite low compared to my two meters(fluke and amprobe). I contacted tech support and they explained that the Emporia uses real power amperage readings instead of apparent power. If I viewed the wattage readings they lined up with my meter and within 2% of the reading on my POCO smart meter. They said they are working on adding apparent power amp readings and voltage readings to the app. So for the time being I will be in the watts reading configuration to see what's going on.
As a side note I was able to chat with tech support within 1 min.
As a side note I was able to chat with tech support within 1 min.
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
Either someone at Eporia doesn't know how their system works, or there is an early stage in the process that they are blind to, and then are backing things out.
They don't have a power transducer. They have voltage and current transducers. They have to calculate power from these measurements. (Unless they are also somehow getting power reports from the smart meter, in which case they are working with power and voltage...but I'm pretty sure they use CTs.)
So I could imagine that their hardware calculates power and that they then need to 'back out' the current measurement from this...but really they should have direct access to the current measurement.
-Jon
They don't have a power transducer. They have voltage and current transducers. They have to calculate power from these measurements. (Unless they are also somehow getting power reports from the smart meter, in which case they are working with power and voltage...but I'm pretty sure they use CTs.)
So I could imagine that their hardware calculates power and that they then need to 'back out' the current measurement from this...but really they should have direct access to the current measurement.
-Jon
Open Neutral
Senior Member
- Location
- Inside the Beltway
- Occupation
- Engineer
Gar may well be right over the number of TED 1000's & 5000's forgotten, as I see them on eBay.
But the 6000's are as rare as hen's teeth.
I'm in conversations with Emporia about their offering. I'm attracted because we need more circuits monitored than we have TED 6000 channels available. (Single-point monitoring, and then guessing which appliance was responsible for X watts strikes me as reliable as a slot machine.)
I asked them about watts vs. VA; they said:
The Gen 2 measures voltage, phase/offset as well as real and apparent power for best calculations. We only display amperage and watts in the app for the time being, but looking to get more of those values added to the app in the future.
Only the 200A CT's detect direction, at present. (Upcoming for 50's) You can tag direction on solar array's etc.
He also denied they sell customer data. Future plans may be offering energy management services.
He acknowledged concerns about cloud reliance & said others are asking as well.
But the 6000's are as rare as hen's teeth.
I'm in conversations with Emporia about their offering. I'm attracted because we need more circuits monitored than we have TED 6000 channels available. (Single-point monitoring, and then guessing which appliance was responsible for X watts strikes me as reliable as a slot machine.)
I asked them about watts vs. VA; they said:
The Gen 2 measures voltage, phase/offset as well as real and apparent power for best calculations. We only display amperage and watts in the app for the time being, but looking to get more of those values added to the app in the future.
Only the 200A CT's detect direction, at present. (Upcoming for 50's) You can tag direction on solar array's etc.
He also denied they sell customer data. Future plans may be offering energy management services.
He acknowledged concerns about cloud reliance & said others are asking as well.
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
220314-2031 EDT
This thread seems to have responders with several different goals. So real power monitoring of every circuit may not be needed in all cases. Simple single level current monitoring may be sufficient in some cases, and this would greatly reduce the cost to monitor many circuits.
f you do not need phase information, and voltage is reasonable constant, then a simple proportional current sensor may be adequate. You also might be able to use a scanning technique of current transducers, and/or current and voltage.
.
This thread seems to have responders with several different goals. So real power monitoring of every circuit may not be needed in all cases. Simple single level current monitoring may be sufficient in some cases, and this would greatly reduce the cost to monitor many circuits.
f you do not need phase information, and voltage is reasonable constant, then a simple proportional current sensor may be adequate. You also might be able to use a scanning technique of current transducers, and/or current and voltage.
.
Open Neutral
Senior Member
- Location
- Inside the Beltway
- Occupation
- Engineer
My client revels in details, all the details. We will want to get MQTT from the system, for those circuits we do choose to monitor.
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