Power Company loose neutral

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Location
Mn
Occupation
Master Electrician semi retired Electrical Contractor
I am currently troubleshooting a power surge ( lighting strike) at a residence, after checking voltages coming from utility, which are 240v phase to phase and 120v phase to neutral on each side of incoming power. I starting turning branch circuits and voltages seem to vary when loads come on line one side 135v and the other 85v, lights dim etc. I had the power company come out check there equipment and they say everything looks good. I've checked connections tightened all neutrals, grounds, power connections on both sides of service panel main breaker and on load side of meter base. I also added a ground wire to sub panel circuit to a detached garage. I've added additional ground rod to service panel and subpanel circuit and isolated grounds neutrals in subpanel in detached garage. When 240v loads are turned everything looks normal 240v each side main breaker and 120v to neutral or ground. I turn on a refrigerator and voltages are 135v and 85v lights dim and flicker. I turn 120v water heater circuit and same affect? I have been working on this problem for 3 days frustrating. I've called utility each morning and ? I am thinking a loose neutral on their equipment? Tomorrow I will bring out a generator to power up the water heater and refrigerator circuits. I've also noticed many burned out light bulbs and BO appliances
 
Last edited:
Location
Mn
Occupation
Master Electrician semi retired Electrical Contractor
zbang
Thanks for your advice, very frustrating, they just showed up and I find out 2nd hand from the customer. I will call them tomorrow morning and request to meet with them on site. This has been on going for several days, maybe I should stay retired.
 
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LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I've had the same problem with POCO guys who don't realize that loads need to be on for a bad neutral to show itself.
 
Location
Mn
Occupation
Master Electrician semi retired Electrical Contractor
I've had the same problem with POCO guys who don't realize that loads need to be on for a bad neutral to show itself.
Power Company (POCO) guys, I've called 3 times over a 2 week period. First guy said it wasn't their problem 2 days last week and went on vacation. Yesterday I told the technician over the phone that I personally know the POCO CEO and their made their way out to the site, but didn't tell me until after they left the residence, frustrating! Tomorrow morning this is coming to a screeching halt.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
This should be pretty easy to determine whether this is on the POCO side or the customer side on your own without the POCO. Get some 1800 watt hair dryers to use for loading on one phase and turn off normal loads so you don't fry anymore items than you already have. Some items get pretty expensive to repair or replace.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
Power Company (POCO) guys, I've called 3 times over a 2 week period. First guy said it wasn't their problem 2 days last week and went on vacation. Yesterday I told the technician over the phone that I personally know the POCO CEO and their made their way out to the site, but didn't tell me until after they left the residence, frustrating! Tomorrow morning this is coming to a screeching halt.
If possible get a hair dryer or a heat gun, connect it to first connection after meter base.
Show them.
Ask to speak to the POCO engineer. Ask a lineman if they ever heard of a “Super Beast”. It should be standard equipment for any utility.
It plugs directly into meter base and is basically a hair dryer

BTW, most POCO guys out there are little more than glorified constructions workers that know very little about electrical theory,
 
Location
Mn
Occupation
Master Electrician semi retired Electrical Contractor
This should be pretty easy to determine whether this is on the POCO side or the customer side on your own without the POCO. Get some 1800 watt hair dryers to use for loading on one phase and turn off normal loads so you don't fry anymore items than you already have. Some items get pretty expensive to repair or replace.
I didn’t fry any items this is what I found when I arrived at the residence
 
Location
Mn
Occupation
Master Electrician semi retired Electrical Contractor
This should be pretty easy to determine whether this is on the POCO side or the customer side on your own without the POCO. Get some 1800 watt hair dryers to use for loading on one phase and turn off normal loads so you don't fry anymore items than you already have. Some items get pretty expensive to repair or replace.
I didn’t fry any items this is what I found when I arrived at the reside
If possible get a hair dryer or a heat gun, connect it to first connection after meter base.
Show them.
Ask to speak to the POCO engineer. Ask a lineman if they ever heard of a “Super Beast”. It should be standard equipment for any utility.
It plugs directly into meter base and is basically a hair dryer

BTW, most POCO guys out there are little more than glorified constructions workers that know very little about electrical theory,
Thanks Hv&Lv
 

oldsparky52

Senior Member
Some years ago my neighbor had a PoCo employee show up and test. Being the curious guy I am, I asked what's going on. Flickering lights, electrical just doesn't seem right.

PoCo guy checked voltage and was leaving after saying everything was alright. I asked him if he would wait for a few minutes while I checked a couple of things. I got the homeowner to turn on the hair dryer only, and checked voltages.

I told the PoCo guy that they had a bad neutral and why I said that. He went to talk to someone at dispatch and then after about 5 minutes came back with the beast.

Digging crew was out and fixed the degrading spliced neutral in their service lateral, in about 4-5 hours. Pretty good IMO.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Don't be too surprised if eventully they check it and "find nothing wrong" but the problem miraculously disappears :) . Our local POCO folks have been instructed not to verify any problems on their end from a liability standpoint.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
Maybe the POCO response depends on who you get to talk to.
I call, text or email the engineers or linemen directly. I get answers immediately if they have them, minutes if they need to make a phone call, or within a day or two if they need to spend some time investigating for less urgent issues.

Smart meters have helped. Those stock well services that loose power are fixed before the customer notices the cows are thirsty.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
211022-0834 EDT

Buster2021:

You have had good responses from persons that have some reasonable understanding of electrical circuit theory, and troubleshooting.. This type of problem has come up way too many times on this forum. What I don't understand is why so many average electricians don't understand basic electrical circuit theory, and be able to troubleshoot such problems. I also don't understand why the problem ( poor electrical connection ) seems to be more related to the neutral, and is seldom mentioned relative the hot wires.

When you have flickering lights or other indications of a high resistance problem, then troubleshooting should start at the main panel. Measured results are somewhat different on a systems using two phases of a three phase system compared to two phases of a center tapped secondary of a single phase source system. The single phase sourced system I will comment on.

The power company single phase transformer has one primary winding, and a center tapped secondary. At the power company transformer location the center tapped secondary will be grounded with a local ground rod at that point. Resistance to earth unlikely to be less than 1 ohm, and in my area about 10 to 20 ohms, and some areas much higher. The ground rod at the main service entry point will be approximately the same resistance. At my home the ground at the home is much lower because it is about 150 ft of 1.25" diameter copper pipe.

The service drop from the power company transformer to the main panel is only three wires, two hots, and one neutral. I will assume that each of those wires has the same diameter, material, and thus each is equal in resistance to the others. The only impedance difference between each of the these three paths is transformer internal impedance of each of the hot paths, and meter impedance of the two hot paths. For simplicity I will assume these added impedances are small compared to the wire impedances.

Whenever you see voltage variation in a facility ( lights flickering, or motor speeds ( especially fans ) varying ), then it is my opinion you start by looking at the voltage variation at the main panel. I like to use an approximate 12 A 120 V load ( a small space heater with fan, I don't like the fan, but that is how you get high power in a small space ). Because my daughter has my small, only working one, 1500 W heater I am using a 1000 W hot plate as my test load.

I want the first main panel voltage measurements to be between the actual power wire to the neutral bar, not the bar itself, and the actual hot wires from the meter to the panel, again actually on the wire. This eliminates from the measurements any voltage drops at those termination points, and it provides you with the closest measurement of the voltages at the meter outputs.

My measurements at the main panel location with a 1000 W load are:
Unloaded side line to neutral 124.4 to 124.6 an 0.2 V positive change, in other words the neutral drop with 8.1 A change.
Loaded side line to neutral 123.6 to 123.1 an 0.5 V drop. Thus, 0.5 -0.2 = 0.3 negative change in voltage in the hot wire. And this side has about 0,2 V additional voltage drop from the transformer winding and meter coil impedances.

These voltage drops result from approximate impedances of 0.2/8.1 = 0.025 ohms for the neutral, and 0.3/8.1 = 0.037 ohms for the hot path. If we had a one side with 100 A load, then the voltage on that side might be dropped from 123.6 to 117.4 or 6.2 V.

In most homes I expect you will see somewhat greater drops for these loads. From what your measurements are you will have to decide whether to call the power company or not.

For internal problems in a home you use the same kind of test and make judgments based on the results.

.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
211022-0834 EDT

Buster2021:

You have had good responses from persons that have some reasonable understanding of electrical circuit theory, and troubleshooting.. This type of problem has come up way too many times on this forum. What I don't understand is why so many average electricians don't understand basic electrical circuit theory, and be able to troubleshoot such problems. I also don't understand why the problem ( poor electrical connection ) seems to be more related to the neutral, and is seldom mentioned relative the hot wires.

When you have flickering lights or other indications of a high resistance problem, then troubleshooting should start at the main panel. Measured results are somewhat different on a systems using two phases of a three phase system compared to two phases of a center tapped secondary of a single phase source system. The single phase sourced system I will comment on.

The power company single phase transformer has one primary winding, and a center tapped secondary. At the power company transformer location the center tapped secondary will be grounded with a local ground rod at that point. Resistance to earth unlikely to be less than 1 ohm, and in my area about 10 to 20 ohms, and some areas much higher. The ground rod at the main service entry point will be approximately the same resistance. At my home the ground at the home is much lower because it is about 150 ft of 1.25" diameter copper pipe.

The service drop from the power company transformer to the main panel is only three wires, two hots, and one neutral. I will assume that each of those wires has the same diameter, material, and thus each is equal in resistance to the others. The only impedance difference between each of the these three paths is transformer internal impedance of each of the hot paths, and meter impedance of the two hot paths. For simplicity I will assume these added impedances are small compared to the wire impedances.

Whenever you see voltage variation in a facility ( lights flickering, or motor speeds ( especially fans ) varying ), then it is my opinion you start by looking at the voltage variation at the main panel. I like to use an approximate 12 A 120 V load ( a small space heater with fan, I don't like the fan, but that is how you get high power in a small space ). Because my daughter has my small, only working one, 1500 W heater I am using a 1000 W hot plate as my test load.

I want the first main panel voltage measurements to be between the actual power wire to the neutral bar, not the bar itself, and the actual hot wires from the meter to the panel, again actually on the wire. This eliminates from the measurements any voltage drops at those termination points, and it provides you with the closest measurement of the voltages at the meter outputs.

My measurements at the main panel location with a 1000 W load are:
Unloaded side line to neutral 124.4 to 124.6 an 0.2 V positive change, in other words the neutral drop with 8.1 A change.
Loaded side line to neutral 123.6 to 123.1 an 0.5 V drop. Thus, 0.5 -0.2 = 0.3 negative change in voltage in the hot wire. And this side has about 0,2 V additional voltage drop from the transformer winding and meter coil impedances.

These voltage drops result from approximate impedances of 0.2/8.1 = 0.025 ohms for the neutral, and 0.3/8.1 = 0.037 ohms for the hot path. If we had a one side with 100 A load, then the voltage on that side might be dropped from 123.6 to 117.4 or 6.2 V.

In most homes I expect you will see somewhat greater drops for these loads. From what your measurements are you will have to decide whether to call the power company or not.

For internal problems in a home you use the same kind of test and make judgments based on the results.

.
When the voltage goes UP on one wire, resistance in the hot wire is moot. Resistance in the neutral wire connections are the problem.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
When the voltage goes UP on one wire, resistance in the hot wire is moot. Resistance in the neutral wire connections are the problem.
Right. The only way one L-N voltage can rise (while the other one drops) is a bad neutral.
 
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