No UL listing on equipment, need it for inspector.

[luckyshadow]

Your inspector is most likely going to fall back on NEC 2008 Article 110.2- Approval
the conductors and equipment required or permitted by this code shall be acceptable only if approved

Article 100 - Approved :Acceptable to the Authority having Jurisdiction

If by chance your inspector tries the old stand by 110.3 and not the above then you have a shot at beating him as 110.3 (B) Listed and Labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling;

You equipment IS NOT LISTED so this section does not apply

I've seen many misinterpret 110.3

 

[roger]

If this thing is on a assembly line than It would be Industrial machinery, but if it is in an office than it wouldn't and it needs to be listed.

Did you read the statute that Tim posted, seems pretty clear to me that it is industrial machinery.

Owner needs to get it listed, and problem goes away.

I wouldn't waste my money on something that is unnecessary, others may choose to do so, that's up to them.

Roger

 

[roger]

Roger I recommended moving it out to the owner but it's so heavy he would rather not. He hired a moving company to move it from his old location. It may be as cheap to have it listed.

Tim, the owner would definitely have the final decision in the matter, I just hate seeing them have to spend money on this.

Roger

 

[William1978]

Get it listed and the problem goes away.

 

[cschmid]

there are many ways to get the job passed.you can butt heads or you can comply.

now you have the bee hive stirred up and you need to get the bees calmed down.

You can try any of the underhanded ideas now but inspector could pay you a surprise visit after you are up and using it.

so the way to settle this is through cooperation and reasonable means to settle the issue.

In my opinion it is not an issue with the inspector on any equipment in the facility if it is portable and cord connected. inspector is only responsible to inspect fixed wiring of the facility. it is not his job to enforce UL listings.

Now what is it that he thinks is wrong with this piece of equipment or what other agenda is present here.

 

[wireguru]

In my opinion it is not an issue with the inspector on any equipment in the facility if it is portable and cord connected. inspector is only responsible to inspect fixed wiring of the facility. it is not his job to enforce UL listings.

many jurisdictions have local electrical/building codes requiring everything to be listed. it most likely IS his job to enforce UL listings if this jurisdiction requires it.

 

[SmithBuilt]

now you have the bee hive stirred up and you need to get the bees calmed down.

I see nothing wrong with challenging an inspector. In my opinion both of us are to follow the codes/laws to the word. I have no problem doing so, but in this case I feel he is wrong.

You can try any of the underhanded ideas now but inspector could pay you a surprise visit after you are up and using it.

I disagree that my methods are underhanded. After I get a CO I don't care how often he visits.

In my opinion it is not an issue with the inspector on any equipment in the facility if it is portable and cord connected. inspector is only responsible to inspect fixed wiring of the facility. it is not his job to enforce UL listings.

The inspector does not agree with you or me on that. After reading Bob and Charlie B's argument on where the inspectors job ends I feel this piece of equipment is out of his jurisdiction. It is cord and plug, it is not one of the cord and plug pieces of equipment that the NEC addresses IMO.

Now what is it that he thinks is wrong with this piece of equipment or what other agenda is present here.

He did not even look at the equipment from a safety standpoint. He only looked for a UL listing. He believes it is his job to do so. I now disagree with him on two issues; the fact that it is cord and plug connected and the NC general statute I posted above.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Tim
Just a couple of thoughts for you to ponder.

1. Sometimes equipment is governed by the NEC
Cord connected Pool Pumps, Dish Washers, Disposals, etc...

2. Portable Cord connected has its limits.
The weight of the equipment makes it not portable.

3. In California, they allow cord connected A/C units.

4. Lighting in some circumstances is cord connected.

5. Show cases are permitted to be cord connected.

I think you can see my point.


If I was you, I would speak to the inspector, tell him you respect his decision, but you and your customer are going to dispute it and let a higher authority make the decision.
You can mention that 90.4 is in place to allow an inspector make a decision about non-listed equipment that may still be legitimate, although most inspectors do not like to take that route... liability.

 

[iwire]

2. Portable Cord connected has its limits.
The weight of the equipment makes it not portable.

Where can I find that in the NEC?

 

[cadpoint]

I've watched and followed this thread with interest !

I will agree with the NC G.S. /code as posted, but will also note the twenty seventh post that stated how local AHJ's deal with these issues. Our county inspection has taken it to the extreme!

It's been a real big issue in my town and in a conversation with a neighbor they stated that commercial and industrial have shied away from locating in this town / county do to the heavy burden of this exact situation and of the known total inspection process!

The conversation with the neighbor while a little different concerned inspections of UL equipment that is put together to be something usefull!

IMO: It seems that other local AHJ's have learned rightfully so to inspect this way, and inspect accordingly to stricter requirements based on these types of issues!

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Where can I find that in the NEC?

I deduce this from definitions in different Articles, such as Art 517 and from the Style Manual, which directs us to the Webster dictionary for definitions not in the NEC and also from the IEEE dictionary.

Oh, and from experience.


Now go easy on me Bob, I am enjoying a nice quiet Saturday morning. :grin:

 

[iwire]

Now go easy on me Bob, I am enjoying a nice quiet Saturday morning. :grin:

Me too. :smile:

I think the weight of an item and it's portability is a retaliative issue.

If you drop a 5000 lb paper cutter in someones home driveway I think we would both agree that it is not very portable. :smile:

However that same item placed on the floor of a large printing shop is very portable. They will have the equipment to move that unit at the drop of a hat.

Having worked in a few factories I have first hand experience that weight does not keep them from moving equipment around like they are end tables in the family room.

My only point is that weight alone does not make an item portable or not. :smile:

 

[augie47]

we have always relied heavily on the term "FACTORY cord & plug". In this area, a field installed plug does not remove the equipment from Listing requirements, but a FACTORY cord and plug normally does.
In four decades in this trade, the Listing requirement has always been a highly "political" issue.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Me too. :smile:

I think the weight of an item and it's portability is a retaliative issue.

If you drop a 5000 lb paper cutter in someones home driveway I think we would both agree that it is not very portable. :smile:

However that same item placed on the floor of a large printing shop is very portable. They will have the equipment to move that unit at the drop of a hat.

Having worked in a few factories I have first hand experience that weight does not keep them from moving equipment around like they are end tables in the family room.

My only point is that weight alone does not make an item portable or not. :smile:

I will agree with this to a point.
There are times in industrial locations where the trained personnel and the necessary equipment to work with (not electrical equipment) is available.

Take a look at 517.2 - Xray, portable and mobile.

Webster's Dictionary:
Portable - Capable of being carried or moved about.

I would say there could be a discussion that could go either way.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

we have always relied heavily on the term "FACTORY cord & plug". In this area, a field installed plug does not remove the equipment from Listing requirements, but a FACTORY cord and plug normally does.
In four decades in this trade, the Listing requirement has always been a highly "political" issue.

I believe this is where the last sentence of 90.7 can be relied upon during inspections, especially with foreign made equipment.

 

[augie47]

Foreign equipment has caused TN to add the following NRTL's to their acceptable agencies:


NSF International
T?V S?D America, Inc.

 

[iwire]

I would say there could be a discussion that could go either way.[/COLOR]

I agree weight can figure into it but not weight alone.

Here is an example

I used to do a lot of temporary Generators in lower CT, often the units would come from NYC and would be skid mounted like above without wheels. I was told this helps prevent theft of the units.

So they are still portable, they drop them off with a boom truck but they are very heavy.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I agree weight can figure into it but not weight alone.

Here is an example

I used to do a lot of temporary Generators in lower CT, often the units would come from NYC and would be skid mounted like above without wheels. I was told this helps prevent theft of the units.

So they are still portable, they drop them off with a boom truck but they are very heavy.

I would not consider this type of generator as portable.

Because a generator can be mounted on a trailer and moved around does not constitute it as being portable. I have seen houses moved on trailers...they are not portable...are they? :grin:

 

[augie47]

some are, they are called "mobile homes"

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

some are, they are called "mobile homes"

Now you are staying SHARP!!!


Sometimes there just is not an easy answer.