No Good Options

tkb · Dec 9, 2004

Re: No Good Options

Before they allow a contractor to "Cut and Reconnect" they must be approved by the POCO.

I had to fill out a request and submit to the POCO. It was apporved without any training or discussion.

I always use hot gloves while connecting. Not like the old days in the 70's using bare hands and romex connectors.
I have since learned respect for live unprotected power.

[ December 09, 2004, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: tkb ]

busman · Dec 9, 2004

Re: No Good Options

It's nice to see this post generate so much discussion, which I have found very informative. Can anyone provide recommended sources for purchasing PPE (hot gloves and flash protection) on the Internet or suppliers who might sell it locally? I am now willing to bite the bullet.

I guess now would be a bad time to start a new post about fall protection? Just kidding.

[ December 09, 2004, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: busman ]

highkvoltage · Dec 9, 2004

Re: No Good Options

Here is a site
http://www.probuy.net/dir/62.html.
I still own my own 20 kVA gloves also known as class 2 gloves. You would only need low voltage gloves 600V or 1000. Just remember you should have your gloves tested every 6 months and always air test them before use by rolling them up from the cuff to the fingers and listen for leaks. I also suggest you get the glove bag to store them, do not share them and also store them in the bag cuffs to the bottom of bag so you do not get foreign material in them. good luck.

hasty · Dec 10, 2004

Re: No Good Options

Where I live at local building code requires an outside disconnect regardless of where your panel is located in relation to your meter or any other factor.
I have mixed feelings on this, as far as safety, I think its a great idea. But as a homeowner whats to say (i know this is extreme,but possible)when Im gone on vacation somebody cant flip the breaker on my disconnect, and when I get home I have all my perishables in the fridge or freezer stinking the place up, or in the winter having my pipes freeze?
Their purpose given for this code, is incase of emergency the fire dept., or whoever need be, can shut the power off before entering the home. So there goes the "lock it up" idea.
Does anyone else have this code?

jimwalker · Dec 10, 2004

Re: No Good Options

Also puts them in danger of burglars at night.
I do see there point in case of fire

roger · Dec 10, 2004

Re: No Good Options

I don't think the Fire dept would hesitate to pull a meter or knock it off with an axe. I can't see a good reason for this requirement.

Roger

stars13bars2 · Dec 10, 2004

Re: No Good Options

When the fireman yells padlock another one will grab the bolt cutters and do away with the lock. Go ahead and lock it if you wish. On the downside the enemy or thief will have bolt cutters also.

midget · Dec 11, 2004

Re: No Good Options

Pulling a meter sounds really scary, after reading what all you guys have had to say.

What do you guys base your decission off of, and take into consideration, when deciding if it's safe to work a panel (or anything for that matter) energized?

[ December 11, 2004, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: midget ]

noxx · Dec 11, 2004

Re: No Good Options

I think that there's two wholly different practices being discussed here, one a matter of safety and one of legality.

If you do choose to pull a meter, it should NEVER be under load, that's about as bright as opening up a neutral while troubleshooting a hot multi-wire branch.

Around here, the legality issue is muddy but in common practice it's accepted that the only reason PoCo is allowed to lock the meter is to prevent acess by unqualified personell. As a licensed electrician, you can do whatever's necessary to service or repair the homeowners equipment, including cutting PoCo's lock provided you call them and tell them "I'm cutting your lock, deal with it" or something similar (and perhaps more tactful) prior to doing so.

To me, each situation is different. If a service needs immediate replacement I don't have a problem disconnecting the feeders hot. Accidents can happen easily in our profession, but careful planning and the proper equipment minimize them.

I know the established rules and guidelines exist to protect us from ourselves, but my own rule of thumb is, if you feel confident and prepared to do a task that needs immediate attention then do so. If you feel at risk, don't push your luck.

jimwalker · Dec 11, 2004

Re: No Good Options

I have never seen a meter person pulling the boots off or turning the meter to the activate position using any special protection.They check to make sure main breaker is off before installing.
Take this a step further.If customer doesn't pay there bill and disconnect is inside home they will pull meter with a load.
With load off i see no danger in pulling a meter.The neutral stays in tack its only the 2 hots being removed.

Yes the legality is an issue.As long as it's done by an electrician for the purpose of repairs,inspection,replacement of main breaker,etc. then they should have no problem with this.On a service call i often have seen panels with buss bars that are ready to arc over any minute.They might last a few more days or weeks ,then again maybe only hours.I inform customer and most want it changed right now.The cost is high enough without adding extra trips or causing them to move out for a couple days and lose all the food in frig.Now if the poco offers 30 minute service to do the same thing i am doing and will stand by to reinstall meter then fine.

I have seen it take a week to get them to even cut a drop to a T POLE and it took 2 months to get one underground T pole cut free (confusion over paper work )
Lets see how far they get in court with keeping customer from working on there own equipment.Yes meter is poco property and i am not stealing it or altering it in any way,nor am i stealing electric.

iwire · Dec 11, 2004

Re: No Good Options

Originally posted by jimwalker:
With load off i see no danger in pulling a meter.The neutral stays in tack its only the 2 hots being removed.

Jim apparently electric equipment never malfunctions in Florida? :roll:

How the meter persons do their job has nothing to do with us as electrical contractors.

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Yes the legality is an issue.As long as it's done by an electrician for the purpose of repairs,inspection,replacement of main breaker,etc. then they should have no problem with this.

Jim you are in FPL's territory correct?

If so what you just posted is not accurate.

Right from FPL's Green Book to you here.

The green book is available on line as a .pdf at www.fpl.com

III.H. Unauthorized Connections & Disconnections

All connections of the Customer's wiring to that of FPL, all disconnects of service entrance conductors, all meter removals and installations and all breaking of FPL meter equipment seals shall be made only by FPL, except as allowed in Section III.I of these standards.

Any other connection or disconnection of FPL's service by the Customer or his agent is prohibited. If done with the intent to injure or defraud, it is punishable by law. Violators will be prosecuted.

So the basic rule is no one except FPL employees can ever break a seal.

Section III.I does provide an exception specifically for service changes only, not repair work.

III.I. Change in Service Requirements (Service Changes)

The Customer will normally own all the service facilities on his side of the point of delivery; i.e., the point where FPL's wires carrying the voltage of supply are to join the Customer's wires, except for the meters which will be owned by FPL.

The Customer shall notify FPL, in advance, when a change in service (service change) is being considered to accommodate provisions that service and metering facilities remain adequate.

When a service change requires disconnection of FPL's service, the customer shall request a disconnect/reconnect from FPL. The Customer shall establish an advance appointment to ensure proper coordination between his electrical contractor and FPL crews who will disconnect the service and later reconnect after an inspection when required by local authorities) is received.

Now here is the exception that allows an EC under certain circumstances to disconnect power.

Exception:
FPL normally performs both the disconnect and reconnect. In certain cases however, the Customer's licensed and qualified electrical contractor is allowed, at his option, but only when approved by FPL, to perform the disconnect on overhead services only, when the following criteria are met:



- The Customer shall be a residential or small commercial facility with a main line switch rating of 300 Amps or less, served by an FPL single phase overhead service. No three phase service shall be disconnected by an electrical contractor. FPL must disconnect all three phase services to ensure that proper phase rotation is maintained.

- FPL service attachment point at the building or structure shall remain intact. No service shall be removed from the attachment point or the attachment point altered in any way.

- The meter socket(s) must not have an FPL locking device installed.

- If multiple meters are involved, the electrician shall "mark" each meter and socket.

- Only a licensed and qualified electrical contractor may perform the disconnect function and he shall schedule a reconnect date appointment) with FPL before disconnecting the service. If the appointment is not made before the disconnect, FPL will not be responsible for a same day reconnect.

- The service shall be cut on the load side of FPL's connection to the customer's service conductors. No FPL conductors are to be cut.

- The service shall be disconnected before removing the meter(s). No meter is to be removed from an energized meter socket.

- FPL personnel only are to perform the reconnect and only after an inspection (if required by the local authority) is received. Electrical contractors are not allowed to reconnect the service.

- The decision to perform this type of disconnect is entirely voluntary for the electrical contractor and allows work to commence without having to wait for FPL to disconnect the service. However, the electrical contractor still has the option of FPL performing the disconnect if he prefers.

Please notice:

"No meter is to be removed from an energized meter socket"

Jim I am not a fool, these rule most likely do get broken.

That said I think you are wrong to get on this forum and basically tell all the members here that braking the rules is fine there is no danger and that the power company will have no problem with any of it.

Originally posted by jimwalker:
On a service call i often have seen panels with buss bars that are ready to arc over any minute.They might last a few more days or weeks ,then again maybe only hours.

If in your judgment it is that bad and the POCO is not responsive call the FD and tell them the situation.

Originally posted by jimwalker:
The cost is high enough without adding extra trips or causing them to move out for a couple days and lose all the food in frig.

OK, now I understand we all should risk getting burned so that tonights steak is not ruined. :roll:

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Lets see how far they get in court with keeping customer from working on there own equipment.Yes meter is poco property and i am not stealing it or altering it in any way,nor am i stealing electric.

Jim forget about the stealing, if as you replace the meter and it shorts out you and your company will be held liable for all damages as you where never authorized to restore power.

Bottom line Jim in my opinion you are giving out dangerous advice here and I hope you rethink your posts and your work practices.

Bob

[ December 11, 2004, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

busman · Dec 11, 2004

Re: No Good Options

With respect to pulling the meter in my original post, I certainly meant that this should be done AFTER opening the main breaker so that the meter is not under load, but I should have made this clear. Interrupting current which is flowing thru any inductance is a sure recipe for an arc.

With respect to the PoCo tags, I would have to say their primary purpose is to be tamper evident (like pill and food packaging). The tag is not enough to stop young kids (8 and older) from getting inside the meter can with their parents tools. If they really wanted to prohibit unqualified access, it would be a lock with a master key. The tags only real purpose is to make it very difficult to open the meter can without leaving evidence of doing so.

[ December 11, 2004, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: busman ]

charlie · Dec 11, 2004

Re: No Good Options

Great post Bob. Busman (I wonder about that name?), the seal is like a lock of almost any type, it will keep honest people out. We do indeed have locks for suspected tampers and use them. The ones we use is a modified version of the Brookes Locks (Fort Knox Locks).

busman · Dec 11, 2004

Re: No Good Options

Charlie,

My last name is Busse. I used to work on a crew with another Mark so they took to calling me by my last name and then it evolved to Busman. Not really related to electrical at all.

Mark

charlie · Dec 11, 2004

Re: No Good Options

Mark, that is interesting. I thought you might work for Bussmann, a Division of Cooper Industries. I hope I wasn't too nosey.

hasty · Dec 11, 2004

Re: No Good Options

As I stated in my earlier post, things must be different where Im from. The POCO here,instead of the little plastic tags, uses a small cable thats pressed together. So if your going to cut it off, your gonna need more than your dikes.

rhn · Dec 11, 2004

Re: No Good Options

This topic got side tracked, bussman said (for small tasks such as adding a single circuit)
Who in there right mind is going to pull a meter just to pull a peice of 14/2 or 12/2 in to a panel. If you are not comfortable doing that you should go back to construction where the only thing thats hot is the carpenters extension cord.
and Iwire as far as FPL's strict rules I had a man doing a service change about three weeks ago and the FPL man gave him the connectors to reconnect the service drop. so much for your green book.

pierre · Dec 12, 2004

Re: No Good Options

RHN
I am curious, have you heard of NFPA 70E? How about OSHA? Have you read the definition of Qualified Person in the NEC? Did you understand it, if you read it?
I am only trying to make you aware of the DETAILS that are so important to the safety of our people in this industry.
Your bio says that you are involved with production. Have any of your men been properly trained in making the splice at the service point?
Just because a utility worker gave him the connectors does not necessarily make it right. Up here we make connections for the POCO, but only after taking and passing the Utility's properly taught class and receiving a card that says one is qualified to make those connections.

iwire · Dec 12, 2004

Re: No Good Options

Originally posted by rhn:
Iwire as far as FPL's strict rules I had a man doing a service change about three weeks ago and the FPL man gave him the connectors to reconnect the service drop. so much for your green book.

Did you really read my post?

I know the rules get violated.

If you personally choose to do so I think that is a poor choice.

Buy hey it's you business, if you do not care if your workers get hurt, by all means keep doing what your doing. :roll:

charlie · Dec 12, 2004

Re: No Good Options

I don't care at all about OSHA or 70E. I work everything hot and bare handed. I have survived this long, I am invincible. I just hate it that I will not be a good looking corpse since I will be charred and swollen from being electrocuted.

R.H.N., I really can't believe you would post that comment. Just think about what you said.

No Good Options

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