new ec needs advice

[rickl]

just started my own electric company in washington state. today i got a call from a homeowner who wants me to install new lights in his detached garage. i show up to give him a bid and found several code violations ( undersized feeder #12 on a 40 amp breaker, feeder not in conduit(3 #12 thhn conductors coming out of black pvc pipe then free aired to the sub panel)romex cable supported between 2 roofing nails this is throughout the garage. i showed him the violations
and his reply was we don't have the money to fix all the problems right now, he just wants new light now and we'll fix the problems later. my question is can i just install the new lights or do i have to fix all code violations in the garage, also how about liability i'm i liabel for not fix a violation the homeowner refused to pay for. if it wasn't for a friend i'd run away from this job. heres another code question for washington state people can you wire detached garages,pole building,etc. with exposed romex cable

 

[noxx]

Re: new ec needs advice

Frankly I would de-energize the unsafe circuits and not install any new work until the hazard is corrected. You need to make it safe before you make it anything else, that's #1.

It's very easy to get into situations where you can feel like th bad guy for pushing a repair, esp when money is tight for people. It's easy to feel like you're doing the homeowner a favor by overlooking this or that "minor violation", but in truth, you're only leaving in place a hazard that you knew about and knew you should correct.

The same homeowner won't be doing you any favors when his lawyer comes looking for you after he burns the place down.

As a service electrician I find myself in these situations often, I find it helps to remind myself that above all else, my job is to "protect persons and property from the hazards arising from the use of electricity". If you're doing that, it's ok, if you're skipping that, it's just not.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: new ec needs advice

I think you can perform the new work, but make sure you completely document and submit a report to the homeowner all the violations and safety hazards you see. Provide an estimate for the repairs while you are at it. If they never call you again, or never get the repairs made, no one can say you didn't provide fair warning and remedy for the situation.

To be honest, if I turned down work at every occupancy I see a violation or hazard in, I would not have any work. I have had situations were the conditions were so bad that I contacted the local power company and even the code enforcement office, but most of the time, the issues are minor and though a safety hazard, not an immediate danger to life or proerty.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: new ec needs advice

Your walking on thin ice.
While nothing says you must repair violations or turn them in,working on a circuit that is in this kind of condition puts you in a very bad situation.Would you need a permit to change the fixtures ? If no then do as suggested above in documenting it.If yes get permit or walk away.
The chances here are high that your not the first guy they called and they been turn down before.You are basically doing part of the total job that needs done.I often see other violations on service calls but never anything this bad.
Add one thing on the bill and thats there signature and printed name,date to that list of repairs still needed.Otherwise they could say something like "i never seen a bill,he just said it was $187 and i wrote a check"

[ September 29, 2004, 06:01 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[petersonra]

Re: new ec needs advice

Originally posted by rickl:
just started my own electric company in washington state. today i got a call from a homeowner who wants me to install new lights in his detached garage. i show up to give him a bid and found several code violations ( undersized feeder #12 on a 40 amp breaker, feeder not in conduit(3 #12 thhn conductors coming out of black pvc pipe then free aired to the sub panel)romex cable supported between 2 roofing nails this is throughout the garage. i showed him the violations
and his reply was we don't have the money to fix all the problems right now, he just wants new light now and we'll fix the problems later. my question is can i just install the new lights or do i have to fix all code violations in the garage, also how about liability i'm i liabel for not fix a violation the homeowner refused to pay for. if it wasn't for a friend i'd run away from this job. heres another code question for washington state people can you wire detached garages,pole building,etc. with exposed romex cable

It seems to me the worst of it is the undersized and unprotected incoming wiring. maybe you could get him to pay for replacement of the 40A Cb with a 20A CB (or to pull larger wires) and possibly protecting the wiring in some flex. Its not ideal but its far better than what he has.

As for the Romex issues, if they are up on the ceiling away from likely danger, I would not be as concerned about them. If they are running exposed along the walls its a different story.

Sometimes you have to do what you can with the resources you have, and can't be perfect. If you can't live with this, you need to turn down the job.

 

[charlie b]

Re: new ec needs advice

Originally posted by rickl: If it wasn't for a friend. . . .

Your answer lies in these words. A friend would not let a friend walk blindfolded across an Interstate Highway. Nor would a friend take it unkindly when a friend warns him of danger.

Don?t talk about ?code violations.? Talk instead about ?danger.? Use your professional judgment to select the issues that you believe present an immediate danger to your friend?s family. Tell him about the cheapest way you can come up with to remove the danger.

For example, I like the idea of simply replacing the 40 amp breaker with a 20 amp breaker. I would even suggest that you have him buy the breaker at a hardware store, and tell him you will install it for free if he gives you the original job. He may express concern over having the circuit trip, but that is less important than removing the danger.

Finally, I agree with the suggestions from Bryan and Jim. Put the list of code violations in writing, and get your friend to sign an acknowledgement that he has received that list. If he questions your friendship over you asking him to sign such an acknowledgement, then I would remind you that you two have two separate relationships: That of friends and that of employer/contractor. It is the later relationship, not the former, that compels you to ask for his signature.

[ September 29, 2004, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: charlie b ]

 

[wolfman56]

Re: new ec needs advice

I concur completly with Charlie B.
I am also a Washington electrician and have encounterd this. Only many times it's a house, or business being remodeled to sell, or rent. Yet they refuse to make the repairs. This is where you're L&I inspector can be of help. I do what they hired me to do, call in inspection, then make sure I'm present for inspection. I give him the tour, and the next thing is he's wanting to talk to the owner. After the state gets invbolved it's amazing how things get fixed.
A business and a house were even red tagged during remodel because of this. Both times the owner hired us to repair all unsafe wiring.
The inspection system is good for everyone.

 

[rickl]

Re: new ec needs advice

thanks for the reply's
i think i'll give him a estimate on bringing everything up to code if he doesn't like it i'll walk away, with no hurt fillings and no bad word of mouth

 

[brian john]

Re: new ec needs advice

You show me a house, building factory without a violation and I show you a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Though this case seems extreme, I would suggest the following.

Do the new install and on your service ticket note the violations and get the homeowner to sign for the work you completed, acknowledging the violations.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: new ec needs advice

Might be one other way to handle this.Handle it as 2 jobs.Price out for the work they want done now,do it and collect and at same time give estimate in detail of work to be done to bring it to code.Have simple contract signed before you start work stating this job is to be done as 2 seperate jobs.That way if they don't (and they won't)call you to do the second half of the job then your off the hook as to liability.I think i would change there breaker even if it's a freebe,make it up on the rest of the job.
I use to run service calls on houses that had many violations but if the job was to just replace a bad switch,receptacle,light fixture, then that was all i did.I would point out other problems if i was asked to inspect the house.Yours is an exception worse than anything i ever seen.I know if you new it is hard to pass up $$$$$ and maybe with right paper work you could do it and protect yourself.If you don't do it then some handyman probably will.At least try to remove any fire hazards or shocks

 

[simon]

Re: new ec needs advice

Rick,
I believe we all have an obligation to our customers to inform them of potential hazards. We do however live in a country that is free. A property owner, no matter how ignorant, has the right to make a choice of liability. Once you inform them of the hazards your obligation stops with that choice. We can't be held responsible for another companies work.

In the area where I live if I were to make efforts to remove a customer from harms way than I place myself in a situation of liable for their safety therefore places my insurance at risk.

I would keep detailed documents as to the conversation with the customer in quote form or some other written document. In my company each Electrician keeps a daily record in the form of a material/ labor ticket. We use these tickets to document everything on the job in great detail everyday, from conversations with customers work preformed, problems encountered, corrective actions, comments etc... This helps our people in the office, two fold, with billing questions (support documents) and an account of what transpired on that day on that job.

I would contact your attorney and discuss exactly where you liability ends before you start disconnecting anyones power. Best of luck, Simon

 

[cclmcvay]

Re: new ec needs advice

I would tell him to get his priorities in line