Murray Electrical Panel

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plt

Member
I have been asked to install a Murray electrical panel. I have never used any Murray Electrical products. I have a Federal Pacific panel that is listed, and the most of the breakers fail to trip during faults. If any one has used the Murray I would like to know if they have had any trouble.It is a Seimen subsudiary.
I have used seimen variable speed drives and other seimens products in chemical production and research facilities but I still wonder about this Murray Panel and breakers.
 

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Murray Electrical Panel

Have used a few.No problems that i know of with them.
Hard to find panels with the quality of FEDERAL PACIFIC today ;)

[ November 07, 2004, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 

wireddd

Member
Re: Murray Electrical Panel

Never had any problems with Murray panels or breakers. As long as it is UL listed go ahead and install it.
 
Murray Panels

Murray Panels

You say that if it is UL listed, us it. FPE are UL listed and I would rather go to jail than let a customer keep a FPE in their home or office!
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
dan_mcquiston said:
You say that if it is UL listed, us it. FPE are UL listed and I would rather go to jail than let a customer keep a FPE in their home or office!
Not all FPE are listed.
FPE lost the privelege of being "listed" when it was revealed in [class action lawsuit] that they lied to maintain the "listing".
( [FIRES WAITING TO HAPPEN - Federal Pacific Electric Panels: Fires Waiting to Happen, Debate Waiting to Be Ended] )

BUT....at the time these FPE panels were installed they WERE listed.

Point is:
Just because something was listed in 70's - 80's, it does not mean it will remained listed for eternity.
With that in mind, should we as EC's be leery of products that are UL listed?
Of course not.
It is not our obligation to verify the testing procedures that garnered the products listing.
It IS our obligation to use ONLY products that are listed, labeled and/or approved for the installation.


I would put the Murray in w/o hesitation....as an "upgrade", offer them a Square D QO.


EDIT/RETRACTION
Sadly, I cannot locate the supporting reference/s to my earlier statement:
celtic said:
FPE lost the privelege of being "listed" ....
Without something...anything...to support my claim, it must be assumed to be an incorrect statement on my part.

I apologize for the mis-information.
 
Last edited:

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
celtic said:
Not all FPE are listed.
FPE lost the privelege of being "listed" when it was revealed in [class action lawsuit] that they lied to maintain the "listing".
( [FIRES WAITING TO HAPPEN - Federal Pacific Electric Panels: Fires Waiting to Happen, Debate Waiting to Be Ended] )

BUT....at the time these FPE panels were installed they WERE listed.

Point is:
Just because something was listed in 70's - 80's, it does not mean it will remained listed for eternity.
With that in mind, should we as EC's be leery of products that are UL listed?
Of course not.
It is not our obligation to verify the testing procedures that garnered the products listing.
It IS our obligation to use ONLY products that are listed, labeled and/or approved for the installation.


I would put the Murray in w/o hesitation....as an "upgrade", offer them a Square D QO.


I've heard about the class action suit. In fact I received a letter from a law firm regarding joining the suit. However, I hadn't heard that UL actually de-listed any FPE products.
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
infinity said:
I've heard about the class action suit. In fact I received a letter from a law firm regarding joining the suit. However, I hadn't heard that UL actually de-listed any FPE products.

Maybe I spoke to soon....I have been looking for something to back up my statement...but I recall I said the same thing in previous posts regarding FPE.


I have to find my link to search case law....but I also HAVE to run out the door...

WE ARE EXPERIENCING TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES, PLEASE STANDBY

off_air.jpg




 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
If you could post that info it would be great. Often I get requests for information from customers buying/selling houses with FPE panels when they are flagged by the home inspector.
 

cpal

Senior Member
Location
MA
infinity said:
If you could post that info it would be great. Often I get requests for information from customers buying/selling houses with FPE panels when they are flagged by the home inspector.

try
http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm#fpepanel6

I was of the opinion that only some of the FPE product lost their listing, but that issue was quite a while ago. (my memory is not what it was)

keep in mind that the site I posted is not a UL or CPSC site, the author appears to have an axe to grind.

Charlie
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Celtic, I don't know if the following is what you are thinking about but it touches base on the UL listing removal from the website Charlie posted.

I agree with Charlie though about the bias in parts of the info on the site.

Federal Pacific Electric Stab-Lok Historic Dates

The following dates are excerpted from various public documents, all of which can be found at this website:

1979 Reliance Electric acquired the [bankrupt] Federal Pacific Electric Company from UV Industries.

June 1980, Reliance Electric and FPE brought suit against UV Industries [a liquidating trust which previously handled the assets of the bankrupt FPE company.] for damages of $345 million or for rescission of the previous sale by UV of the FPE line to Reliance, referring to deceptive practices which went on for years on obtaining UL listing for FPE products.

5 July 1980: Reliance Electric stopped shipping FPE Stab-Lok equipment on or about July 5, 1980. Keep in mind that equipment in the pipeline in supply houses was never recalled, so homes built considerably after that date may still have an FPE Stab-Lok panel installed.

21 July 1980: Business Week magazine reports on FPE/Reliance Electric scandal.

September 1980: Reliance Electric brought legal action against Sharon Steel Company which had assumed the liabilities of UV Liquidation.

17 February 1981: Federal Pacific announced that it would voluntarily replace or field modify certain models of its [predominantly commercial and industrial] molded case circuit breaker line. [No recall, no field repair was offered for residential equipment.] Funds were set aside for this replacement [but may not have been expended.]

31 March 1982: Reliance Electric Financial Statements acknowledge that FPE previously obtained UL Listings by fraudulent means and that at "some point thereafter, lost their UL listing."
(Aronstein) provide report of independent testing and failures of FPE Stab-Lok breakers.
CPSC management halts testing of FPE Breakers, citing high costs of continuing the project. The announcement does not exonerate the product and includes generic warnings to consumers.

11 October 1995: The FPE Stab-Lok Website created by DJ Friedman as a consumer information and failure research project.

14 October 1997: Ontario Canada Home Warranty Program issues a warning regarding Canadian Federal Pioneer [Canadian version of FPE Stab-Lok] equipment provided by Schneider Electric if made in 1996 and

1997, and announces a recall program for Canadians.
May 1999 :FPE Stab Lok Website author converses with Schneider Electric re: Federal Pioneer Equipment - further data not forthcoming.
December 1999: Ohio FPE Stab-Lok failure-caused panel-fire documented at the website.

June 1999: IAEI International Association of Electrical Inspectors publishes anonymously and disclaimed, an article [penned by a previous FPE employee] - stating that there have never been failure, safety, or other issues with FPE Stab-Lok equipment.

21 February 2004: Update of ongoing FPE Failure testing reported to ASHI - American Society of Home Inspectors [this topic has been reported to ASHI previously and has been addressed at ASHI conferences and seminars.



Roger
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
I just got back home...nice day out with the family :)....but now it's time for a movie.....I'll put my thinking cap back on in the AM

tinfoilhat.jpg

Do you like my hat?
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
infinity said:
If you could post that info it would be great.
It would be great...wouldn't it?
Sadly, I cannot locate the supporting reference/s to my earlier statement:
celtic said:
FPE lost the privelege of being "listed" ....
Without something...anything...to support my claim, it must be assumed to be an incorrect statement on my part.

I apologize for the mis-information.


infinity said:
Often I get requests for information from customers buying/selling houses with FPE panels when they are flagged by the home inspector.

I have changed our policy on FPE replacement.
Previously, I would hand the customer a printed information sheet (one of many available at the inspect-ny.com website) and allow the customer to make the decision based on their interputation(sp?) of that document.

The new policy is, for a fee, I will inspect the equipment and render my opinion of said equipment and issue an estimate to complete the repair/replacement if neccessary (as determined by me). I will also give the customer a printed information sheet (one of many available at the inspect-ny.com website). If the customer decides to have the work performed, the inspection fee will be applied to the cost of the repairs.

With the advent of the internet, information is readily available for those that have the ability to locate it. The customer could easily locate the same information I provide - should they decide to. In the absence of that ability/decision, I charge a fee to provide the customer with that service.
 
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