More low-voltage licensing questions

[sparrott4]

I am Marketing Director for CAST Lighting, a manufacturer of low voltage landscape lighting fixtures and systems.

I am also interested in the licensing requirements for low voltage lighting installers so I can put together a listing of States and regions with licensing information for each one.

Any ideas of how I can get this information without having to contact every local building dept. around the country?!

I believe there are some state-wide requirements as well as local. What state organizations would I contact?

Another question is about the politics of changes in requirements. Since Landscape Lighting is booming, I hear rumblings from electricians who see their 120v outdoor lighting jobs replaced by low voltage systems that can be installed by non-electricians. I've heard that there is a trend for stiffening the requirements to require electricians to do 12v lighting. Does anyone know of any information available on the politics of this shift?

[ March 31, 2004, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: tom baker ]

 

[tom baker]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

Licensing varies by state, and local jurisdictions. This is not a code issue.
I can tell you for washington state, but seattle has their own code, for example.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

Originally posted by sparrott4:
I am Marketing Director for CAST Lighting, a manufacturer of low voltage landscape lighting fixtures and systems.

I am also interested in the licensing requirements for low voltage lighting installers so I can put together a listing of States and regions with licensing information for each one.

Any ideas of how I can get this information without having to contact every local building dept. around the country?!

I believe there are some state-wide requirements as well as local. What state organizations would I contact?

Another question is about the politics of changes in requirements. Since Landscape Lighting is booming, I hear rumblings from electricians who see their 120v outdoor lighting jobs replaced by low voltage systems that can be installed by non-electricians. I've heard that there is a trend for stiffening the requirements to require electricians to do 12v lighting. Does anyone know of any information available on the politics of this shift?

I think you're going to have a hard time coming up with a comprehensive list. Some states have statewide licensing, others have local licensing, and some places don't require electricians to be licensed at all.

The best source of information I've seen is on this Web site under "Exam Prep". There's a link under there where state license requirements are listed, and there's often a Web link for each state.

As for the political question, my state (Minnesota) recently instituted a new license called "power limited technician". I think they can do low-voltage lighting jobs, but I'm not sure about that.

 

[sparrott4]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

Thanks Jeff. As a general question for electricians in this forum:

Do you feel that stricter regulations and/or codes and/or licensing are justified for the installation of low voltage landscape lighting?

I'm hearing a lot of gripes from landscapers who find the regulations changing in their disfavor. I'd like to hear the electricians' point of view so I can present a balanced discussion in an article that I'm writing.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

sparrot4,
Ask any of the landscapers, handymen, etc. who are installing these lights how close they can be installed to a swimming pool. Of course when they plug them into the rear outside GFCI receptacle.
Do you know??
I bet they dont.

Also, how many of these installers do you think change the standard weatherproof cover to a listed In-Use cover?

Since this must comply with CODE, why should there not be an inspection??

Amps is Amps.

Low voltage does Not mean Low hazzard.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

Originally posted by sparrott4:
Thanks Jeff. As a general question for electricians in this forum:

Do you feel that stricter regulations and/or codes and/or licensing are justified for the installation of low voltage landscape lighting?

I'm hearing a lot of gripes from landscapers who find the regulations changing in their disfavor. I'd like to hear the electricians' point of view so I can present a balanced discussion in an article that I'm writing.

I agree with Luke. You'd be surprised how many code requirements there are that affect this kind of thing. I doubt many landscapers know what kind of wire/cable is permitted, how deep you have to dig for various situations, how close you can be to other wiring or pools, what overcurrent protection is needed, etc.

Just because something is low voltage doesn't mean it can't hurt you. I've seen low-voltage lighting installations done by non-electricians that were clear code violations. This is why licensed electricians rather than landscapers should be the ones doing electrical work.

 

[sparrott4]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

You've all made some strong points. Any suggestions on where I might find a summary of codes likely to impact landscape lighting (I know it's different for many states)?

We've been giving Landscape Lighting seminars for several years now and cover code topics of burial depth, GFI outlet requirements and distance to water features. I think we may be missing "distance from high voltage lines." What else?

 

[hbiss]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

I agree with Luke and Jeff but I'm going to throw some fuel on the fire.

Why do you have to be knowledgeable in the entire trade just to do LV landscape lighting? Put another way, if all you are ever going to do is LV landscape lighting, why should you have to be a licensed electrician?

The reason I'm taking this position is that this is not unique to landscapers and landscape lighting. Other LV areas such as audio, data, telecom, etc. face a similar situation. Most of this work has traditionally been done by people or companies that specialize in that one area and will never have reason to perform work in any other area of the electrical field.

Because this work must follow the NEC in some way, there are people who think only electricians are capable of performing it. Others use this as an excuse to get restrictions put in place that require that the work be done by a licensed electrician, and this could be construed as a restriction of trade.

What do I propose? Certainly not that we allow just anybody to perform work that is covered by the NEC without qualification.

In the case of landscapers, a short course could be offered by the local or national trade association, community college, etc. to teach the proper way to install landscape lighting. The NEC should be stressed and an abridged version of the Code should be made available (hear that NFPA?) that covers only the relevant Articles. Upon completion, a certificate would be awarded that would be required by the jurisdiction to perform the work. If the jurisdiction requires permits and inspections the contractor would be required to obtain them.

This seems like a simple way to ensure a reasonable amount of compliance with the NEC without denying the landscape contractor opportunities for work.

-Hal

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

Hal, I agree.
But to add some smoke, what you propose is not in place right now. So for that reason, my stance is that someone with a license should be doing the install.

On this issue, Delaware sucks!
There is no requirement for any of the systems that you mentioned to be licensed, therefore not inspected.

But, they are inspected, kind of:

If we do a house, but do not install the above systems, they are not covered by us.
If the systems are installed by others, and they violate CODE, OUR inspection will fail!
Then it is up to us to go back to the G.C. and have them contact the installer of that system to fix it. Then after the violation is corrected, the G.C. contacts us and then we have to call for re-inspection.

All of this takes us time and aggrevation for something we did not do or violate, and since we did not do the install, we are now losing money.

I would love to see there be licensing for these individual systems, so that they can pull their own permits and inspections, so that if they have a violation, THEY get the notice and We wouldn't have to put one minute of time into something we have no mark-up in.

In Cecil County, Maryland, a homeowner can not even install an intercom system. The permit must be pulled by someone with the appropriate license.

If a landscaper there was to install low voltage lights and does not have a license, or had a permit issued, and got caught, They #1 would have to pay double the permit cost, and #2 Go To JAIL. How's that for tough?

 

[sparrott4]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

I like the idea of a specialized license that focuses on the codes specific for low voltage lighting. There's really no reason why a landscape designer needs to learn the entire electricians trade for this specialty. The risk of injury with low voltage lighting is near zero.

Mike, (or someone else) how about a summary of codes that apply so I can do some groundwork and, at the very least, pass them on to the hundreds of landscapers that we train every year? And, at best, approach the NEC with proposals for the above.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

Originally posted by sparrott4:
I like the idea of a specialized license that focuses on the codes specific for low voltage lighting. There's really no reason why a landscape designer needs to learn the entire electricians trade for this specialty. The risk of injury with low voltage lighting is near zero.

I think this is why a lot of states now have a low-voltage license for this kind of work. In Minnesota, it's called a "power limited technician". To get the license, you have to pass a test, but it only covers those parts of the NEC relevant to low-voltage circuits.

I agree that having to learn the entire electrician's trade isn't necessary if someone is only going to do low-voltage lighting stuff.

 

[hbiss]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

To get the license, you have to pass a test, but it only covers those parts of the NEC relevant to low-voltage circuits.

There are at least two problems I can see with that. The first is that you usually need a verifiable experience history of several years doing this kind of work to be able to qualify for taking the test. Second, a LV license is even too broad, usually covering telecom, sound, security, maybe even fire systems. And these are installed in structures, not in the ground.

Mike, (or someone else) how about a summary of codes that apply so I can do some groundwork and, at the very least, pass them on to the hundreds of landscapers that we train every year? And, at best, approach the NEC with proposals for the above.

Tom, keep in mind that the NEC has no regulatory authority, they just write the book. It is then up to the states and various municipalities (if they so desire) to adopt this code, in whole or in part, as their own and enforce it.

What this means is that there is no reason to approach the NEC with a proposal, other than maybe buying the rights to publish excerpts of the Code that relate to landscape lighting. Anything more than educating your own customers is going to be a tough uphill battle because it's all going to be political. I seriously doubt that even your company as a manufacturer has the clout or money to persuade the many states and municipalities to adopt any kind of a new system that would increase competition for the electrical contracting industry, one of their biggest political contributors.

-Hal

 

[macmikeman]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

Until the famous time clock manufacturer starts selling low voltage lighting systems that last longer than 6 months or so if you are lucky, I for one almost allways tell the homeowners to get the landscape guys to install the low voltage lighting system. I prefer not to dig in their gardens, and don't like getting callbacks because of the low quality of the fixtures and lamps. I will however gladly run 120 volt lighting made by reputable fixture manufacturers , only I still insist that the garden 18 inch depth trenching is done by the landscaper.

 

[hbiss]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

Macmikeman, I agree with you 100%!

-Hal

 

[hurk27]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

By sparrott4:
The risk of injury with low voltage lighting is near zero.

One of the first things I see that this assumption does is LV installers think that there is no hazard's with LV lighting.

First many don't have a clue how to figure how many amp's will be on a LV circuit, and the fact that the NEC does not allow this type of wiring to be installed, on, through or inside of building walls. These two little mistakes can lead to a fire real quick. Think of this @12 volts a string of lights that equal to 400 watts will have 33.3 amps now I have see where the installer had ran the wire through the outside wall of the garage to plug the power pack into an outlet, Then he only had #16 AWG lamp cord on it!! That was a fire waiting to happen. There are other issue's like most LV power packs don't have isolating shields to prevent a line voltage short from reaching the low voltage circuit, Causing a shock hazard to any child playing around one of these light's.

 

[hbiss]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

Tom, as a manufacturer you should take into consideration what Wayne said above. You will get none of this from the NEC, it is knowledge gained from knowing electrical theory and working in the trade. In addition to the Code you should be stressing in your seminars and all literature the dangers that Wayne pointed out as well as importance of understanding the current involved and using the proper size wire.

Most people, including a lot of electricians, are under the assumption that because it's low voltage it is safe, without danger and you can use small wire. This is not true and you need to spell this out.

-Hal

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

Originally posted by luke warmwater:
sparrot4,


Amps is Amps.

Low voltage does Not mean Low hazzard.

I'll say it again, AMPS is AMPS!!

 

[sparrott4]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

Luke, when you're on the low voltage side, 25 amps at 12v and 300W is perfectly safe.You can hold both ends of that wire and barely feel it. It amazes me that electricians haven't been taught this.

The posts I'm reading here tell me two things: 1. Electricans have not been properly trained in low voltage systems, and 2. If electricians want to take landscape lighting away from the landscapers then they had better plan on taking seminars and stepping up to the plate.

Landscape Lighting is a huge business now and landscapers are highly motivated to light the landscapes they design. Every landscaper that we train becomes highly competent and responsible.

 

[iwire]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

Originally posted by sparrott4:
Luke, when you're on the low voltage side, 25 amps at 12v and 300W is perfectly safe.You can hold both ends of that wire and barely feel it.

25 amps at 12 volts STARTS FIRES

Originally posted by sparrott4:
It amazes me that electricians haven't been taught this.

The posts I'm reading here tell me two things: 1. Electricans have not been properly trained in low voltage systems, and 2. If electricians want to take landscape lighting away from the landscapers then they had better plan on taking seminars and stepping up to the plate.

You have proved the point entirely that many people have no clue as to the dangers involved with low voltage lighting.

I suggest you step up to the plate and learn about what you are apparently installing.

Bob

 

[roger]

Re: More low-voltage licensing questions

I came up on a trafic jam a while back that turned out to be a burning pick up truck, the next days news paper said it was an electrical fire that started in the dash, and would you believe it, it was only 12 volts. :roll:

Roger