Main breaker in seperate enclosure

[growler]

I know of one complex where a group of angry kids did pull it off. Of course it was only once in 5 years of knowing the place, but its one more thing a disgruntled person can use to wreck havoc on society. In this day and age, no thank you.

They turn off a disconnect and it causes billions of dollars in damages and 100 of lives are lost.

Or maybe the disconnect gets closed again and everything is back to normal.


Those disgruntled people could be going around putting super glue in the preperation-H, ever think of that?

 

[mbrooke]

They turn off a disconnect and it causes billions of dollars in damages and 100 of lives are lost.

Or maybe the disconnect gets closed again and everything is back to normal.


Those disgruntled people could be going around putting super glue in the preperation-H, ever think of that?

I have. It happened with Tylenol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Tylenol_murders


http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1878063,00.html

After that, bottles were sold as tamper resistant. Good idea, but with disconnects not so much.

 

[growler]

OK, keep in mind that the code compels compliance. Without that requirement, no one has to spend extra for the material and labor. They can if they want, but it's a free choice. With the requirement, all are compelled to make that expenditure. What is your justification for making people spend more money?

Others are wanting to come up with a completely new product to satisfy the OSHA rule for not working in hot panels. I suggested that the products we already have will work just fine ( exterior disconnect ).

I have never, ever, ever suggested more code book changes or more rules. WE could go back to the 1978 version of the code and it would be just fine with me ( the 1999 cycle would probably be better).

The only justification I could have for wanting people to spend more money is if I get it.

 

[user 100]

Greg I don't think anyone will have a problem with kids cutting the power off either. But if that is the best reason that anyone can come up with for not haveing an exterior disconnect I suggested they could be locked.

If I wanted to I could drive around and shut power off to most of the commercial property in this city by opening disconnects but I don't see anyone doing it. Most are not locked.

If I want to I can shut the gas and water off to, just for fun but I don't see it happening.

Yeah, we've got still lots of older homes with standing pilot lights (old stovesand heaters) fed by gas meters with that valve just right out in the open, but no daily reports of explosions due to it being tampered with by those with malice.

I don't believe that vandalism is a good reason to go against the extra disco at sf residence- the only real cons that make any sense are the added cost (more money but not really that much more) , and putting any extra failure point in the service (incredibly small chance of that).

 

[mbrooke]

Yeah, we've got still lots of older homes with standing pilot lights (old stovesand heaters) fed by gas meters with that valve just right out in the open, but no daily reports of explosions due to it being tampered with by those with malice.

I don't believe that vandalism is a good reason to go against the extra disco at sf residence- the only real cons that make any sense are the added cost (more money but not really that much more) , and putting any extra failure point in the service (incredibly small chance of that).

But one has to only look at this in the above posted link:

The tampering inspired hundreds of copycat incidents across the U.S. The Food and Drug Administration tallied more than 270 different incidents of product tampering in the month following the Tylenol deaths. Pills tainted with everything from rat poison to hydrochloric acid sickened people around the country. Some copycats expanded to food tampering: that Halloween, parents reported finding sharp pins concealed in candy corn and candy bars. Some communities banned trick-or-treating all together.

It only takes one person to figure it out before a chain reaction occurs. Being the day and age we live in, Id rather we not enable the enemy. POCOs are starting to secure everything, even simple overheard manual operated switches. Substations are getting better fencing, control cabinets ounce often hanging open are now secured. Wall being built around power transformers. The fact the NEC is mandating the opposite is a bit saddening.

 

[user 100]

But one has to only look at this in the above posted link:




It only takes one person to figure it out before a chain reaction occurs. Being the day and age we live in, Id rather we not enable the enemy. POCOs are starting to secure everything, even simple overheard manual operated switches. Substations are getting better fencing, control cabinets ounce often hanging open are now secured. Wall being built around power transformers. The fact the NEC is mandating the opposite is a bit saddening.

And the next time my back hurts, and I want my ibuprofen, I'm going to take it- no smell or taste test, no sending it off to a lab for a chemical analysis- sure could be poisoned by that fake advil, also could die on the way to work by getting into an accident. Don't worry, be happy.

I just don't feel that it's that much of a problem w/ sf dwellings or most neighborhoods with sf homes.

Even if we're talking an inner city apt building, probably the vast majority of those discos are locked and/or don't have that many issues- maybe some folks who work with those areas/occupancies will chime in...

 

[kwired]

I live in a condo complex with 285 buildings. There are 1,700 condo units. The meters are on the exterior of the buildings with a 100 or 125 amp breaker disconnect for each unit. I have lived here for over thirty years. The equipment is accessible and clearly visible to all. I know of no instance that someone has turned off the power mischievously.

You have more residents in your condo complex than most of the towns around me have in the entire town. Largest town in the county probably is only about 1500 population.

I have one neighbor maybe 3-400 feet away but on other side of some trees, otherwise next closest neighbor is about a mile away - I couldn't stand having 1700+ all within one complex all the time.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The customer of course since I don't work for free (usually). The money saved on a disconnect probably won't be looking so good now. How about selling a disconnect upgrade so they won't have to wait next time?

But in the real world that just is not going to happen. The work will be done live.

 

[mbrooke]

And the next time my back hurts, and I want my ibuprofen, I'm going to take it- no smell or taste test, no sending it off to a lab for a chemical analysis- sure could be poisoned by that fake advil, also could die on the way to work by getting into an accident. Don't worry, be happy.

I just don't feel that it's that much of a problem w/ sf dwellings or most neighborhoods with sf homes.

Even if we're talking an inner city apt building, probably the vast majority of those discos are locked and/or don't have that many issues- maybe some folks who work with those areas/occupancies will chime in...

Point is, IMHV (in my humble view) in 10 years all new homes will have discos and someone will find that out. Just like we have a horrible game called "knock out" we could have teens playing "blackout". That will lead to every service being pad-locked, and then come true emergency the disco can't be opened.

 

[mbrooke]

But in the real world that just is not going to happen. The work will be done live.

So, I must ask,,, what was the substantiation for outside discos?

 

[user 100]

Point is, IMHV (in my humble view) in 10 years all new homes will have discos and someone will find that out. Just like we have a horrible game called "knock out" we could have teens playing "blackout". That will lead to every service being pad-locked, and then come true emergency the disco can't be opened.

And if the problem arises we can come up with ways to handle it - severely increased legal and civil penalties for tampering would be one and there is already a good solution in many yards that has four legs and mouth full of teeth, and on top of that many hos have hss today with those cameras.

And we know that kids like to pull pranks but I doubt that we're going to see this become a huge issue- In areas where a sep disco is required or more prevalent, do we see this happening? I would also think that most teenagers could probably care less about the extra mcb at a house.

Whatever the NEC decides to mandate on this issue about disconnecting means, while we may or may not agree with it, we will ultimately​ survive.

 

[mbrooke]

And if the problem arises we can come up with ways to handle it - severely increased legal and civil penalties for tampering would be one and there is already a good solution in many yards that has four legs and mouth full of teeth, and on top of that many hos have hss today with those cameras.

Still, why even let it happen first? Why must people have headaches before a solution is reached?

And we know that kids like to pull pranks but I doubt that we're going to see this become a huge issue- In areas where a sep disco is required or more prevalent, do we see this happening? I would also think that most teenagers could probably care less about the extra mcb at a house.

Whatever the NEC decides to mandate on this issue about disconnecting means, while we may or may not agree with it, we will ultimately​ survive.

Perhaps, for now, but the NEC should not dictate design for this reason. The installer always knows more then the NFPA.

 

[growler]

Point is, IMHV (in my humble view) in 10 years all new homes will have discos and someone will find that out. Just like we have a horrible game called "knock out" we could have teens playing "blackout". That will lead to every service being pad-locked, and then come true emergency the disco can't be opened.

I think the average teen would rather hit you meter with a baseball bat than flip off your disconnect ( I know I would ).

Ten years from now after world wars III, IV, and V the cities will be populated by mutants and whatever is left from the Zombie Apocalypse. People won't need electric lights, they will glow in the dark. The last thing in the world you will worry about is teens playing blackout.

 

[mbrooke]

I think the average teen would rather hit you meter with a baseball bat than flip off your disconnect ( I know I would ).

Ten years from now after world wars III, IV, and V the cities will be populated by mutants and whatever is left from the Zombie Apocalypse. People won't need electric lights, they will glow in the dark. The last thing in the world you will worry about is teens playing blackout.

But that isn't as exciting as turning power off. And the charges by police will be less.

 

[mivey]

For many areas where POCOs have not required an exterior disconnect it is now a new requirement. And yes there is the argument of meter packs which I have a story about those.

I meant the use of statistics.

 

[peter d]

I don't think an outdoor disconnect is necessary or a good idea.

 

[mbrooke]

I meant the use of statistics.

There are none that back this code proposal that I know of.

 

[mivey]

But in the real world that just is not going to happen. The work will be done live.

That's what I do. Unless working on the main and then we wait for POCO. I usually find something useful to do with my time. That is the way it is in my real world. Others can make their own reality.

 

[mivey]

So, I must ask,,, what was the substantiation for outside discos?

No unprotected cable in structure and emergency response disconnect. Everything else is a convenience.

 

[mivey]

But that isn't as exciting as turning power off. And the charges by police will be less.

Been there and done that as a kid. Just not as much "fun" as other stuff. It's just not a big deal and I don't see why some think it is.