Magnetic Field Strength

Guest · Sep 4, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

I had just gotten out of the MRI for a scan. The technician opened the door to the room so I could leave. A little old lady in a walker started heading for the magnet. The tech screamed, "N-O!". The walker was ripped out of the arms of the old dear and sailed onto the magnet. The tech told me after they turned the magnet off it would take three days to power it back up. There happened to be three burly A/C guys there fixing the heater and they pried the walker off the magnet. The further they got from the magnet the easier it got for them to handle it. I thought it was pretty funny. It never occured to me until later that a few minutes earlier I could have been knocked out cold. Maybe there should be a safety barrier to protect one's head?

Wayne

big john · Sep 4, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

I haven't spent any time around MRIs but I know a lot of, if not all of hospitals have signs outside their x-ray rooms: "X-RAY ON" or something to that effect. Why doesn't anybody spec. a sign to be put outside MRI rooms that says:

MAGNET ON.
No Metalic Objects
Beyong This Point.

-John

roger · Sep 4, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

John we do a lot of MRI's and I don't know of any where someone could walk in front of the magnet room with out going into a restricted area.

I can't say Wayne's experience didn't happen, but it couldn't have happened in the ones I have been involved with.

Roger

Guest · Sep 4, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

Originally posted by roger:
John we do a lot of MRI's and I don't know of any where someone could walk in front of the magnet room with out going into a restricted area.

I can't say Wayne's experience didn't happen, but it couldn't have happened in the ones I have been involved with.

Roger

That's what I thought too. They were very strict and kept me behind a big solid "leak-proof" door. When they opened the door to let me out they turned their backs and a little old lady came in the big door and got within range of the magnet. They had me worried about the iron in my blood. They really put the fear of God into you before you go in. I'm glad I was clear of the magnet when the walker came sailing by. Oh, it did not suck the old lady in too...just her walker. They're lucky that neither she nor I was injured at all. They were also lucky to have several burly men on hand to pry the walker off the magnet. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Maybe I'll submit my story to that web site and they can verify it. I was surprised that when I followed the link about the little boy that they said that MRI "accidents" are very rare. They may not be as rare as we think if there is no requirement to report what I saw.

../Wayne

don_resqcapt19 · Sep 5, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

I always thought that walkers were made of aluminum.
Don

Guest · Sep 5, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
I always thought that walkers were made of aluminum.
Don

I thought so to. All I can say is that the walker was yanked from her arms when she was still some distance from the magnet. If it had been all steel I believe it would have flown faster and it would have been harder to pull off the magnet. Also, if she had been more alert and stronger she could have overcome the pull of the magnet when she started feeling the tug. If it had been all steel it would have grabbed her from a further distance.

Here are the facts:

The magnet was old.
It is privately owned.
The area was secure and restricted while I was in
the magnet. I was the only one in the room.
I had to be shoehorned into the magnet.
I was not in the magnet when the woman walked in.
I was adjacent to the magnet putting on my
clothes.
The door to the secure area was opened while I put on my clothes.
It was a walker.
It looked pretty much like the picture I posted.
It did happen.
Nobody was injured.
Several men were able to pry it off the magnet without shutting down the magnet.
The owner thought he was going to have to shut it down to remove the item.
It takes several days to power up that magnet according to the owner.
It was funny at the time.
I will never again allow anybody to open the door while I am in the restricted area!
It will probably never happen to me again (according to the statistics of MRI accidents).

../Wayne

[ September 05, 2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

big john · Sep 5, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

Originally posted by awwt:
Here are the facts:

...It was funny at the time.

I love it. "It was funny, and that's a fact, dammit!"

-John

karl riley · Sep 5, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

Wayne, walkers are aluminum. Aluminum is not attracted by magnets. Story is false.

Karl

roger · Sep 5, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

Karl, I have got to agree with you on the story almost surely being false for other reasons based on discussion with some MRI people.

Roger

[ September 05, 2003, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

Guest · Sep 5, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

Originally posted by karl riley:
Wayne, walkers are aluminum. Aluminum is not attracted by magnets. Story is false.

Karl

Send me a private message and I will put you in touch with the MRI clinic. You can contact them and do your own investigation. Additionally, if you are ever in the Bay Area we can drive over there and you can see how it happened. We can bring a walker with us-- an aluminum one.

I was there. It happened. There must be enough ferrous parts in a walker to yank it out of an 85-year old ladie's arms. And there must be enough lack of ferrous material to allow a few burly electricians (or HVAC mechanics) to pry the walker off with the magnet running a standby power. The walker stuck to the magent and it was a big deal for the owner as he didn't want to shut his magnet down for three days. The three days part is what he told me at the time. I don't know the reality of how to power up an MRI. I only know what I saw.

Again, contact me offline and I will give you the name and contact info for the MRI clinic.

../Wayne

Guest · Sep 5, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

Originally posted by roger:
Karl, I have got to agree with you on the story almost surely being false for other reasons based on discussion with some MRI people.

Roger

Roger,
I would be most interested in hearing about your research. As I was there I can assure you that it happened. I would be most interested in how this psychic defense has been conducted. Seriously, I am very interested in details of what the MRI people told you. What I can tell you with my right hand on a Bible is that a lady got into my MRI room with a walker and that her walker ended up attached to the magnet a good distance from the floor.

Please private message me if you feel the need to take this portion of our discussion offline.

../Wayne
awwt

PS: I was puzzled to read online that there is a low incidence of recorded MRI accidents. Mine was probably off the record as nobody was injured and they did not have to call for service to get the walker removed. They allowed me to wear my gold wedding band in the magnet as it non-ferrous. I know that aluminum in non-ferrous. I know that stainless steel is not supposed to be magnetically attractive (depending on its quality). Plastic is not attracted to magnets, etc. I know that. I also know her walker stuck like glue to the magnet.

[ September 05, 2003, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

roger · Sep 5, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

Wayne, I don't see any reason to take it behind closed doors, we can keep it in the open. You should be more able than I to get the incident report. I really don't know why you wouldn't give the name of the facility anyways, it must be in the phone book so I can't imagine a privacy issue.

My discussion didn't involve any magnet theory if it makes you feel any better.

With that said, until or if you ever want to take it any farther I'll leave this alone.

Roger

Guest · Sep 6, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

OK Roger. Bring it on. What did the MRI people tell you?

../Wayne

roger · Sep 6, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

Wayne, Show us a floor plan (yes this is the direction along with was the staff drunk of my discussion with the MRI people) and give the name of the facility for our curiosity. Why not post the report? I mean you would have a right to see it being you were involved. These events can be deadly and I wouldn't think they would just sweep it under the rug.

Roger

iwire · Sep 6, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

Originally posted by awwt:
I also know her walker stuck like glue to the magnet.

It must have been the steel axle for the wheels.

Even if this did happen to you, you have no proof so it comes across like BS.

Bob

Guest · Sep 6, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

The only proof I have at this point is the integrity of the people that were there at the time including the MRI technician, the owner, the workmen, the staff, the old lady, and me. I mentioned it to several people at the time including my wife, doctor, friends, etc. I have not discussed it again until today.

Trust me. It happened.

../Wayne

Guest · Sep 6, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

Originally posted by roger:
Wayne, Show us a floor plan (yes this is the direction along with was the staff drunk of my discussion with the MRI people) and give the name of the facility for our curiosity. Why not post the report? I mean you would have a right to see it being you were involved. These events can be deadly and I wouldn't think they would just sweep it under the rug.

Roger

Roger (or anybody that is interested):
Please contact me offline for the name and address of the facility. It is privately owned. I am not comfortable posting my medical information here.

The facility is 20 miles away and I do not have a floor plan. I do know the layout roughly by memory. Here is the important part. The MRI room is pretty good sized off a common hallway. The door is huge and sealed with copper interlock. There are no windows. It has a suspended ceiling. The machine is about 15' away from the door. When you are in the machine your head is pointing at the door. The tunnel is not much bigger than I am. If I was any bigger I would not have fit. They had to use special pads to shoe-horn me in. They never opened the door while I was in the machine. When the door was opened the technician went over to a counter in the MRI room while the old lady wandered in. I was off to the side putting on my street clothes. The technician turned around saw the old lady and the technician screamed. The walker went aerial.

I did not think about the deadly aspect at the time. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. After your comments it is my hope that they filed some kind of report, but again as they did not have to call for service I just don't know. I don't know what the industry standard is regarding reporting these incidents. It did not occur to me at the time that it was a reportable issue. I stopped thinking about it until this thread came up.

With my hand on a Bible and under penalty of perjury I swear that the above is 100% true and accurate.

Please contact me offline and we can take this to the next level. Thank you for your interest. I now realize how serious this issue was. I am very thankful that nobody got hurt and there was no economic loss.

Respectfully submitted,

../Wayne

PS:

<snip>yes this is the direction along with was the staff drunk of my discussion with the MRI people<snip>

Can you re-write this or explain it? I think I'm with you, but not quite sure what you meant. THANKS! ../Wayne

[ September 06, 2003, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

roger · Sep 6, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

Wayne, I will leave this alone after this post. As I said earlier we do alot of MRI's and I was at a job site where we are installing a new scanner (not an MRI) in a radiology center. This center has two MRI's, a GE closed magnet and a Hitachi open magnet,(much more patient friendly) which we did about a year ago. My conversation was casual with some of the staff not a full fledged investigation by any means, they just couldn't immagine how this could happen, hence my opinion. Note opinion.

yes this is the direction along with was the staff drunk of my discussion with the MRI people

All the facilities I have worked in have had a safe (restricted) area (the staff people agreed in their experiences and careers that this is always the case) between public areas and the magnet room.

The drunk part may have been a joke, I don't know.

For the GE safety video go here.

I have watched this many times, we have to on GE installs.

Roger

[ September 06, 2003, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

Guest · Sep 6, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

Oh, you meant the staff may have been drunk. I have no idea. They are mostly in the control room except to take me in and out of the trolley that goes into the magnet.

The GE video was really good, informative, and interesting. After watching the GE video I'd say that it's really lacking in how to prevent accidents. Their only safety suggestions were:

1. Post some signs.
2. Test for magnetic potential of items coming into the scan room.
3. Be careful.

After my experience I would suggest that the scan room should be fail-safe regarding ferrous items.

1. A double door system.
2. A metal detector in the transition room between the two doors.
3. The inner copper-interlocked door will not open if the metal detector senses ferrous metal.

That would have kept me safe. I'm knocking on wood right now. Thank you for making me see what a dangerous situation it was. I took my personal safety very seriously when I was there and I took precautions not to bring any metal into the scan room. I trusted the staff to take care of their campus. My trust was violated all too easily by the staff and their sloppy procedures.

../Wayne

PS: Here is a link to MRI missile safety. It's not enough. It's not fail-safe. It relies on human frailties:
Prevention of "Missile Effect" Accidents

[ September 07, 2003, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: awwt ]

karl riley · Sep 6, 2003

Re: Magnetic Field Strength

Gentlemen all, there comes a time to step back and observe what is happening. The content of the discussion becomes irrelevant when one recognizes a pattern of behavior.

The pattern is to engage everyone in provocative ways so that one becomes the center of attention and also (required) the seemingly wronged party. One has succeeded when the respondents are so irritated that they say something extreme and then feel they have to apologize.

One characteristic to watch for is the tendency to introduce new topics and break into rational discussions in diversionary ways.

Let's end this thread as of now, and in the future not respond to these tactics. If an electrical or Code issue is brought up, let's try to resolve it as we usually do. If another topic is stimulated by the discussion, then one can start a new thread.

OK?

Karl

Magnetic Field Strength

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