I was wondering what type of cable you guys use for low volt lighting. For under/over cab lighting we use seagull ambiance, juno track 12, lucifer etc. 12 or 24 volt systems. We generally put the trans in the basement below the kitchen and whip 14/2 or 12/2 low volt wire to each fixture location. In 15 years I have never been knocked down for using this wire. The inspector said it wasnt rated for the use I am using it for.( note I do not disagree with him). He says to use 14/2 or 12/2 romex. My question is what do you guys use for this? Lucifer's system uses crimped ends to connect to the lighting track and you cant crimp solid wire. I have a large kitchen remodel to look at and I am wondering what a "safe" wiring method would be.
Low voltage lighting
- Thread starter aecjohn
- Start date
- Status
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Low voltage lighting
Low voltage cable can not be run through walls floors or ceilings. You must use a chapter 3 method.
400.8
400.8 Uses Not Permitted.
Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following:
(1) As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure
( 2) Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors (3) Where run through doorways, windows, or similar openings
(4) Where attached to building surfaces
Low voltage cable can not be run through walls floors or ceilings. You must use a chapter 3 method.
400.8
400.8 Uses Not Permitted.
Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following:
(1) As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure
( 2) Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors (3) Where run through doorways, windows, or similar openings
(4) Where attached to building surfaces
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Low voltage lighting
411.4 states that a Chapter 3 wiring method is required when wiring low voltage lighting, such as undercabinet lighting, if the low voltage wiring is concealed or passing through walls. Low voltage wire such as for landscape wiring is not a listed Chapter 3 wiring method, therefore it is not permitted to install this in walls.
Some people equate low voltage wiring as safe from fires. The energy that is available is what creates the fire, and low voltage lighting has enough energy available to create fires, hence the Chapter 3 wiring methods.
Pierre
411.4 states that a Chapter 3 wiring method is required when wiring low voltage lighting, such as undercabinet lighting, if the low voltage wiring is concealed or passing through walls. Low voltage wire such as for landscape wiring is not a listed Chapter 3 wiring method, therefore it is not permitted to install this in walls.
Some people equate low voltage wiring as safe from fires. The energy that is available is what creates the fire, and low voltage lighting has enough energy available to create fires, hence the Chapter 3 wiring methods.
Pierre
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Low voltage lighting
Don
The following are from the UL Guide Information sheet for Wire Connectors and Soldering Lugs.
It appears that the UL listing permits the use of crimp connectors on solid copper conductors #10 and smaller.
Don
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Low voltage lighting
A frend of mine is renovating his store. He didn't ask me to do the electrical because "we were too high on the price we gave him for a house he was building 15 years ago". :roll:
I walk into the job just to see how things are going and see around 5 pieces of 18/2 zip cord hanging out of the soffit above the new sales counter. These are obviously for LV lighting.
Rather than mind my own business, I reminded his electrical contractor that that was not a suitable wiring method and the inspector will surely red tag them. His "solution" was to shove the tails up into the holes so they wouldn't be seen by the inspector. Nice to see people taking my advice.
So, if you are wondering how everybody does it I hope this isn't it!
-Hal
A frend of mine is renovating his store. He didn't ask me to do the electrical because "we were too high on the price we gave him for a house he was building 15 years ago". :roll:
I walk into the job just to see how things are going and see around 5 pieces of 18/2 zip cord hanging out of the soffit above the new sales counter. These are obviously for LV lighting.
Rather than mind my own business, I reminded his electrical contractor that that was not a suitable wiring method and the inspector will surely red tag them. His "solution" was to shove the tails up into the holes so they wouldn't be seen by the inspector. Nice to see people taking my advice.
So, if you are wondering how everybody does it I hope this isn't it!
-Hal
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: Low voltage lighting
It amazes me how often this is violated.
It amazes me how often this is violated.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Low voltage lighting
Don
I read through this page and do not see how this is saying that a crimp connection (butt splice) can be installed using both stranded and solid in the same splice.
Pierre
Don
I read through this page and do not see how this is saying that a crimp connection (butt splice) can be installed using both stranded and solid in the same splice.
Pierre
Re: Low voltage lighting
Don
On a side note to using the UL Guide Information. I noticed the subject matter- Wire Connectors and Soldering Lugs for Use with Copper Conductors, is found in Annex A of the Code.
The Product Standard Number associated with this Product Standard Name is UL 486A.
Using search, on the UL's Online's Certifications Directory, I can't seem to find a means to use "UL 486A" in pulling up its related subject matter. Is there a simple way to do this, or does one just have to use related words in a search?
Thanks.
Don
On a side note to using the UL Guide Information. I noticed the subject matter- Wire Connectors and Soldering Lugs for Use with Copper Conductors, is found in Annex A of the Code.
The Product Standard Number associated with this Product Standard Name is UL 486A.
Using search, on the UL's Online's Certifications Directory, I can't seem to find a means to use "UL 486A" in pulling up its related subject matter. Is there a simple way to do this, or does one just have to use related words in a search?
Thanks.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Low voltage lighting
Pierre,
That is the listing category that applies to crimp connections and therefore unless otherwise marked, the connector is suitable for both solid and stranded conductors #10 and smaller. If this category does not apply to crimp connectors, then why is the following in the guide information?
I don't know how to search by the UL standard number. You have to use "keywords" or know the four letter category code.
Don
Pierre,
That is the listing category that applies to crimp connections and therefore unless otherwise marked, the connector is suitable for both solid and stranded conductors #10 and smaller. If this category does not apply to crimp connectors, then why is the following in the guide information?
kthbrwn,
I don't know how to search by the UL standard number. You have to use "keywords" or know the four letter category code.
Don
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Low voltage lighting
John you would have to look at the type of cable type this is.
Then you could find if it is listed in Table 310.13 Conductor Application and Insulations.
If it is in this table you can use it.
If it is not in this table it is a no go.
For the jobs I am on we use MC cable as that is what we have on site.
Seems like NM is the way to go in a dwelling unit, keeping in mind the ampacity.
A 300 watt LV transformer has a 25 amp output.
John you would have to look at the type of cable type this is.
Then you could find if it is listed in Table 310.13 Conductor Application and Insulations.
If it is in this table you can use it.
If it is not in this table it is a no go.
For the jobs I am on we use MC cable as that is what we have on site.
Seems like NM is the way to go in a dwelling unit, keeping in mind the ampacity.
A 300 watt LV transformer has a 25 amp output.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Low voltage lighting
The LV wire we have used in the past is not zip cord, but a pvc coated 2 conductor wire. We typically use 10/2, 12/2, 14/2. One manufacturer is carol.
I would with certainty say that that wire is CL2 or CL3. No good. You have to use a chapter 3 wiring method and the only products that are available are the usual NM, AC, MC etc.
Apparently this is another area where manufacturers need to get up to speed and produce a wiring product for an application that will comply with the NEC otherwise compliance will be nil.
I have been complaining about this same situation with regards to Class 1 audio wiring. The NEC says you have to do it their way, nobody makes products to comply, inspectors don't know what to look for and contractors throw their hands up in desperation. Seems nobody cares.
-Hal
The LV wire we have used in the past is not zip cord, but a pvc coated 2 conductor wire. We typically use 10/2, 12/2, 14/2. One manufacturer is carol.
I would with certainty say that that wire is CL2 or CL3. No good. You have to use a chapter 3 wiring method and the only products that are available are the usual NM, AC, MC etc.
Apparently this is another area where manufacturers need to get up to speed and produce a wiring product for an application that will comply with the NEC otherwise compliance will be nil.
I have been complaining about this same situation with regards to Class 1 audio wiring. The NEC says you have to do it their way, nobody makes products to comply, inspectors don't know what to look for and contractors throw their hands up in desperation. Seems nobody cares.
-Hal
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Low voltage lighting
300 watts is 25 amps at 12 volts. IMO this situation should not be treated any different than if this were 120 volts at 25 amps- use 10ga wire.
-Hal
300 watts is 25 amps at 12 volts. IMO this situation should not be treated any different than if this were 120 volts at 25 amps- use 10ga wire.
-Hal
Re: Low voltage lighting
Now for the kicker. A month ago I was red flagged for an installation of 12/2 low voltage wire. Cited that wire wasn't listed for the purpose I was using it. Many inspectors allow this to be installed in some towns. If the wire mfr would list the wire for the application and we used inline fuses 12 or 24v 5 10 15 amp to protect individual lines it would make life simple. In my neck of the woods (central NJ), we do a lot of high end residential and low voltage lighting is very common.
Thanks for re-affirming my thoughts!
Now for the kicker. A month ago I was red flagged for an installation of 12/2 low voltage wire. Cited that wire wasn't listed for the purpose I was using it. Many inspectors allow this to be installed in some towns. If the wire mfr would list the wire for the application and we used inline fuses 12 or 24v 5 10 15 amp to protect individual lines it would make life simple. In my neck of the woods (central NJ), we do a lot of high end residential and low voltage lighting is very common.
Thanks for re-affirming my thoughts!
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Low voltage lighting
15 amps 14 AWG
20 amps 12 AWG
30 amps 10 AWG
So on a 300 watt 12 volt transformer use 10 AWG or you will need some added overcurrent devices.
In line fuses sound like a good possibility, leave the transformer with 10 AWG and hit a large enough J box to hold some in-line fuses and come out with 14 AWG.
Nothing has changed, 240.4(D) still applies to these low voltage applications.
15 amps 14 AWG
20 amps 12 AWG
30 amps 10 AWG
So on a 300 watt 12 volt transformer use 10 AWG or you will need some added overcurrent devices.
In line fuses sound like a good possibility, leave the transformer with 10 AWG and hit a large enough J box to hold some in-line fuses and come out with 14 AWG.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Low voltage lighting
If the wire mfr would list the wire for the application...
Not that simple. NM for instance is listed for the application but who needs the ground and the solid wire? Manufacturers need to MAKE a wire for the purpose. The CL3 and CL2 wire you were using CANNOT be listed for this use.
use inline fuses 12 or 24v 5 10 15 amp to protect individual lines...
Sure, but why should WE have to cobble up a distribution box that wouldn't be listed yada, yada, yada. No reason the transformer manufacturers can't make the larger sizes with multiple OCP'd outputs so that you didn't have to drag 8ga wire around. But it's easier and cheaper this way with everybody claiming ignorance. Besides, you could always use multiple smaller transformers to solve that problem. Costs your customer more money and the manufacturer makes more money.
The damn UL needs to get off their butts but i'll believe that when I see it.
-Hal
If the wire mfr would list the wire for the application...
Not that simple. NM for instance is listed for the application but who needs the ground and the solid wire? Manufacturers need to MAKE a wire for the purpose. The CL3 and CL2 wire you were using CANNOT be listed for this use.
use inline fuses 12 or 24v 5 10 15 amp to protect individual lines...
Sure, but why should WE have to cobble up a distribution box that wouldn't be listed yada, yada, yada. No reason the transformer manufacturers can't make the larger sizes with multiple OCP'd outputs so that you didn't have to drag 8ga wire around. But it's easier and cheaper this way with everybody claiming ignorance. Besides, you could always use multiple smaller transformers to solve that problem. Costs your customer more money and the manufacturer makes more money.
The damn UL needs to get off their butts but i'll believe that when I see it.
-Hal
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