Less capable electricians

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I was wondering how experienced instructors out there felt about the state of the average electrician's abilities. A few years ago I ran a large electrical project at one of GM's proving grounds and was amazed, to say the least, of the skill level of the journeyman that worked for me. Out of 70+ electrician's, I felt only 1 or 2 had the knowledge of a journeyman. I truly believe that there is a large decline in the average intelligence of those who are entering the trades on the whole. This is not meant to insult anyone, just a personal observation. Unfortunately, I am finding more and more evidence to support this position. I feel that the type of individuals that chose the trades as a career a few years ago are now pursuing advanced degrees(not that I blame them). I would like to hear other opinions on this matter and I will appreciate all responses.
 

crossman

Senior Member
Location
Southeast Texas
Re: Less capable electricians

One of my duties is to test electricians who are desiring entrance into our organization. Part of the hands on evaluation requires the prospective applicant to run 1/2 EMT down to a box on a metal stud and install a switch for a light fixture in the ceiling. It amazes me that electricians who say they have 4 or 5 years of commercial experience will pull a black and a white down to the switch. They connect the white to the hot in the j-box in the ceiling, and use it to feed the switch, then use the black as the switch leg. Obviously, these folks have only been exposed to AC cable and NM cable.

Overall, the ability of those who claim to have 4 to 6 years of experience is surprisingly low.
 

kansas

New member
Re: Less capable electricians

I've been teaching apprenticeship classes for going on 20 years, and I've had at least one really sharp student in every class. The overall intelligence level of the classes does fluctuate, but I wouldn't say it has declined over the years.
 
Re: Less capable electricians

I've been an electrical instructor part time for 25 years and a provider of continuing education as well. I have taught 4th year apprentices for the past ten years who are supposed to be about ready to take their exams. What I have found in any class I have taught is that in a cross section class of 20 students, I have three that are ready, three who do not belong in the class and the rest are plain mediocre. I assume this boils over to those who have already passed and have gotten their licenses. My opinion is that the license authorities put too much emphasis on hours of experience and hours of schooling and not enough on content and learning. Also, the young people of today have too many distractions outside of school and work. There is a lack of work ethic as is there are social norms that have changed dramatically in the past fifteen or so years. Our society today hands children things that we all worked hard for when I was in my wonder years. These people you are hiring to work today are looking at their profession as a job and not a profession. I have tried to get the message out there that being an electrician is a profession and not a job. There is knowlege that one has to gain and that their is no exception for experience! Once you become an electrician, you are an electrician for life no matter what other venture you may attempt. Unlike stocking the supermarket shelves or flipping the hamburgers where once you leave that job, you have no more skills than you did hte first day you started there. If more emphasis was put on the understanding that being an electrician is more like being a doctor or lawyer and that education and experience is key then perhaps the level of quality would be raised. The battle of work ethics is a social disease that continues to promulgate and corrupt. Our young people are watching their hero athletes and entertainers making large sums of money for playing, something we did in the playgrounds after school or on weekends. Our school systems are overburdened with political correctness and less productive hours of learning. Our teachers are less knowledgeable in the basics of reading, writing and arthimatic and they are spending too much time preparing students to take achievement tests that they should be able to pass if they were attending school as they should be. In fact, last evening while my students were doing their code and practical questions, I thumbed through the full time teacher's attendance folder for the week and saw that out of a class of twelve students, at typical day had four students absent. That is 1/3rd of the class is absent on a typical day! Do you remember that being allowed to go on. Now why are those students absent, well some of them I bet are up very late into the evening playing hockey, watching TV or sufing the net. There is no dicipline and no social ethics. There is a lack of formality and students have been allowed to question the importance of what they are being taught. I am sure that there are many more reasons for the degredation of our society when it comes to work ethic and learning, including the fact that we have seen great exportation of manufacturing jobs to other countries with fewer restrictions on employers to hire and fire workers. Do you remember when there were American made automobiles and foreign made automobiles? Is there a such thing anymore? So perhaps the blue collar worker is destined to become a specialty worker? Only time will tell. Perhaps the circle of life will bring us back to a time when we say yes sir or no sir and when an education really meant something for all people.
 

ken987

Senior Member
Re: Less capable electricians

I agree completely Ben,
I'm 26 and feel that my parents and grandparents were taught better that I was. When I attend school they were to busy giving tests and deciding what would be the best way to teach us. Unfortunately, I see the same happening to my daughter, she is suppose to be learning math, however is doing some silly problem solving garbage. What happened to learn the addition tables, and multiplication tables.
I just passed my contractor's test, even though I passed I still feel the need to learn as the four years of night school were junk. More guys were worried about getting home to see the game than learning. Having not worked for contractors that were willing to show me the Right way to do things, I'm now reading and learning the right way. I'm finding the more I learn the less I know. I think that what the business guy at the union hall said it best " It's not a job, but rather a career." With the type of people I went to school with, it makes me very worried that these people are out there doing electrical work.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Re: Less capable electricians

I have to agree with the sentiments expressed here. :(


I think the trade is going downhill, for many of the reasons that Ben stated. Also, based on the lack of quality in the work that I see.

Yes, there is lots of great quality work out there, but for every good job, there are 5 lousy ones.
 

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Less capable electricians

If it makes you feel any better,after 23 years in electrical and 15 in electronics i feel like i know less every day,and the pay as per value of the dollar is less.I am in process of getting out of wiring and into data and computers.When they can charge $90 per cat 5 jack it is time to rethink

[ February 16, 2005, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 

brentp

Senior Member
Re: Less capable electricians

I do new construction in Houston Tx. Installer basicly. Control contractor is subbed under the mech contractor. Mech sub supplies most of remote starters,vfd's and disconnects. Start-up "techs" etc... All we do nowdays is line/load from an engineered set of drawings. Conductor & conduit sizes are a given. No reason to "think", its all on the drawings.
 

wireman

Inactive, Email Never Verified
Re: Less capable electricians

****************************
No reason to "think", its all on the drawings.
****************************

It really gripes me when I see so-called "electricians" say this!!

Most of the time we don't have any drawings to work from or we create them ourselves. Small projects or service type work.

Maybe this is the difference btw. an installer and an electrician.
 
Re: Less capable electricians

A sidelight to the discussion, the high school math/algebra teacher who uses the classroom full time is new this year. I have been using this particular classroom for about 5 years. She uses an overhead projector to teach algebra! She has folders with slides of all of the textbook problems and she shows them on an overhead screen! I don't get it. I teach a lot of math/theory and I use the blackboard from one end to the other. I make my students write everything down systematcally and I make them all punch the numbers in their calculators. I warn them that chances are when they take their license exam with 30% of the questions being math related, and if they get an answer wrong, history finds that most of the time it is because of a mistake from getting the decimal in the wrong place or punching the wrong number in the calculator. I also explain that the calculator is a tool not a computer! Do not use the calculator to come up with an answer but rather use the calculator to do the math, step by step and write every answer from the calculator down on paper. That way you will understand how you got the answer. I corelate what we do in class to going to a gym and working out! Practice Makes Perfect! Perhaps it is my parachoial school education and the Great Sisters of Saint Joseph who were relentless in teaching the fundamentals that makes me do it. I kind of feel that one of the social ills is the lack of detail, the lack of teaching the proper way to do things. I always preach to my journeymen and foremen to teach the young apprentice the right way to do things, not your bad habits. Of course that doesn't mean much if they themselves have never learned the proper way. That brings me back to the newer teachers of today who use overhead projectors for problems that need to be worked out on the blackboards so that students can see the problem develop in front of them. The classroom I used prior to the one I use now, I was in for about 10 years. The full time teacher was the night school director and he also was an old fashioned algebra teacher. He retired and the classroom went to a young English/Literature teacher. She immediately took all the students desks and put them in a circle. She moved the teacher's desk off the platform in the front of the classroom and she put a big overstuffed chair there instead. The teacher's desk was now put off to the side in the corner. She covered the chalk board with posters and art decorations. (including one very bizarre one, "Jim Morrison, An American Poet" and it had his picture in DiVinci's painting of the man with his hands outstretched. I don't remember Jim Morrison being an American Poet but rather a singer/songwriter/drug addict who is buried in Paris) I immediately asked to be moved to a classroom with a visible chalkboard, preferably a large one. It took me three classrooms before I got to the one I have now. Another recent statistic that caught my attention. Of the new teacher graduates from college, less than 30% pass the teacher certification exam the first time. How ironic because electricians have a similar statistic, less than 30% pass. I know that it is caused mostly because they rush to get the license by counting hours and making application as soon as they get the hours they need. The take it and then learn how much they don't really know. I'm afraid my friends it is going to get a lot worse in the coming years because nobody is going to take education seriously and the government officials can't get their acts together to understand the whole picture. All I know, I will continue to do what I do because God Blessed me with the talent to teach and because I love to do it. Oh did I mention, teaching is just a part time thing for me. I really am involved with major construction as an electrical construction project manager and estimator.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Re: Less capable electricians

One of the problems with the quality of entrants into the trades is the fact that all of the high school students that are any good are pushed into college. It is a rare high school academic advisors who will send a "quality" student into the trades.
Don
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: Less capable electricians

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
It is a rare high school academic advisors who will send a "quality" student into the trades.
Don
This is so very true. The apprenticeship committee for the Electrical Council of Florida, Manasota Chapter has requested three years running to have a booth at the local "career night". All graduating high school seniors are required to attend. Colleges, Universities, Military Recruiting, and even technical schools like Devry and ITE are permitted to solicit students and hand out information. The school board refuses to allow us to setup at these shows.

By the way, this is the same school board us instructors work for and that complain that our attendance is too low.
 
Re: Less capable electricians

You know, my little 5 year old niece is so smart and incredible. She amazes me with what she knows and has learned at her young age. I think back to when I was a kid and how far behind I was compared to these kids with regards to being able to read and perform add/subtract/multiply and divide. Her ability to letter and draw and her creative skills are so far advanced. I know she goes to kindergarten with a host of kids who are in the same situation as her. I assume the explosion of TV Learning Programs, good teachers at that level and probably a lot more attention given by their parents at those young ages shows they do have the ability to learn. However, when they get a little older is where it all seems to degredate. I stopped by my sister's house one evening on my way home from the office to pick up something for my wife. She was scurrying around because she had to prepare to take my nephew who was a freshman in high school out to play hockey at 11PM. As I was driving home, I thought to myself, when I was a freshman in high school, we did not even think of going out on a school night, never mind going out to play hockey. I got to thinking how that poor kid won't get home until 12:30ish and would then get a few hours sleep before heading to school. I could picture him in the third period, sound asleep on his desk! What is wrong with the picture here? My dad would not ever let me do that. School came first and extra curricular activities were limited to weekends and school vacations. Grades were important also, if I dare to bring home a report card with anything below a C, I got punished and was not allowed to participate in something. I remember having to give up my paper delivery route when I was about 12 or 13. After dinner, I sat at the kitchen table and did my homework which was checked over by either my mother or father. If I failed to do it correctly, they made me do it over again. Hell, I have given assignments for my students to do and most don't even take the time to do them. They have no study habits at all! For that reason, you cannot get them to open a book! I had one foreman say to me a couple of weeks ago, after we were discussing a specification requirement and I asked him if he read the specs, he said "I thought that was what you in the office were supposed to do!" I must tell you I was not happy with that statement. I gave him a quick answer back that "no I don't have time, I'm too busy eating donuts, talking on the telephone and surfing the internet to read the specs! That is why we pay you the big bucks!" I mean come on here! A foreman has got to read the specs and take notes on what it says before he prepares the work. It's too late to change it after it is supposed to be completed! I constantly explain about the $200 four inch square junction box cover! You know that one that keeps showing up on the punch list that should have been put on the box that is 12 feet in the air when the wires were installed! Now two guys have to go back with a 10 foot ladder to put that one cover on to close out that item! Come on guys, common sense! Whatever happen to common sense. You know what goes on in their minds? Perhaps nobody will notice it or such and such should have done it!
 

ken987

Senior Member
Re: Less capable electricians

One of the problems with the quality of entrants into the trades is the fact that all of the high school students that are any good are pushed into college. It is a rare high school academic advisors who will send a "quality" student into the trades.
Don
This is very true, I myself was on the so called college prep high school classes. I wanted however to go to trade school and finally my junior year put my foot down and said I'm going no matter what. When someone who is bright in school mentions the trades it like :eek: , you don't want to do that, your smart, trades are for the dummies. To this day I couldn't of been happier doing this line of work.
 

luke warmwater

Senior Member
Re: Less capable electricians

Ben F.,
No offense, :) but could you please put a break or two into your posts? Maybe start a new paragraph, once in a while.

My eyes are wiggin' out trying to read them. :eek:
 
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