bobsherwood
Senior Member
- Location
- Dallas TX
I would love to see this in a survey. I am not sold on reliablity of LED and would not recommend installing them... How do the rest of you feel about LED lighting? In general....
LED now or... Not yet??
- Thread starter bobsherwood
- Start date
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Here is one more..http://www.oksolar.com/abctech/LED_lighting-cost.htm
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Create your own survey, add a poll.
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
Just came from an LED seminar. The guy said that he used to have to change his slides about once a year, but since LED came out, the technology is changing so fast that he has to change them about once a month.
While he said that claims of 150,000 hours are out there he thinks that 60,000 to 70,000 are more realistic.
He gave us a chart that shows lm/w of cool white LEDs as follows 2007/47, 2010/97, 2012/121 and 2015/161. So you can see that in less that 3 years the luminaire efficacy has almost doubled, but is projected to almost double again in the next 5 years.
I am actually putting together a proposal that the city should look into replacing all of it's parking lot lights. At a cost savings of almost 80% it's a no brainer.
Oh and I almost forgot, that the prices are projected to drop also.
While he said that claims of 150,000 hours are out there he thinks that 60,000 to 70,000 are more realistic.
He gave us a chart that shows lm/w of cool white LEDs as follows 2007/47, 2010/97, 2012/121 and 2015/161. So you can see that in less that 3 years the luminaire efficacy has almost doubled, but is projected to almost double again in the next 5 years.
I am actually putting together a proposal that the city should look into replacing all of it's parking lot lights. At a cost savings of almost 80% it's a no brainer.
Oh and I almost forgot, that the prices are projected to drop also.
bluesmoke...oops
Senior Member
- Location
- Tri-Cities, Washington
I'll believe that when I see it.
Last Leg
Member
- Location
- Houston, TX
I am skeptical of it. First, those links are to manufacturers who want to sell something new. I have found very little non-biased information. Also, their ies files won't work on standard lighting programs to even see what kind of light you will get; not that it matters - it utilizes 'scotopic' light to achieve the ability to see, whereas the lighting we are used to utilizes 'photopic' light.
ECM had an article this month on LED. One thing, there is some testing that the LED's go through to certify them (I forget the Agency), so make sure you are buying good ones. From what I have read, 50,000 seems to be the effective life. Here are a couple more links.
http://www.patmullins.com/ledlightmyths.html
http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/nlpip/publicationDetails.asp?id=927&type=1
We have a cusomer who might want to use them. We found a school here in Houston that has them in the Parking Lot - Boss says they are not bad, and he was more skeptical that I was, but still not bright enough for Retail.
ECM had an article this month on LED. One thing, there is some testing that the LED's go through to certify them (I forget the Agency), so make sure you are buying good ones. From what I have read, 50,000 seems to be the effective life. Here are a couple more links.
http://www.patmullins.com/ledlightmyths.html
http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/nlpip/publicationDetails.asp?id=927&type=1
We have a cusomer who might want to use them. We found a school here in Houston that has them in the Parking Lot - Boss says they are not bad, and he was more skeptical that I was, but still not bright enough for Retail.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Agreed: not yet. Voted "neither" in the poll.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Brighter is one thing; cost effectiveness (including life) is another.
chris kennedy
Senior Member
- Location
- Miami Fla.
- Occupation
- 60 yr old tool twisting electrician
We have 2 distributors that stop by the shop selling their wares. There is competition and the prices are dropping.
kbsparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Delmarva, USA
So now we have LED bulbs being pushed by the same manufacturers that have been making electronic fluorescent ballasts and bulbs over the past several years.
My experience has been that many of the electronic ballasts are JUNK, and won't last beyond a few years at best.
How can they be expected to build an LED bulb with an electronic driver circuit that will have better lasting ability than their junk electronically driven ballasts?
The jury is still out for me on this one folks.
My experience has been that many of the electronic ballasts are JUNK, and won't last beyond a few years at best.
How can they be expected to build an LED bulb with an electronic driver circuit that will have better lasting ability than their junk electronically driven ballasts?
The jury is still out for me on this one folks.
zbang
Senior Member
- Location
- Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
FWIW, we've had 4-5 small-ish installs (<50 fixtures) in the last two months and have a 250+ fixture one coming up. Somebody likes the concept .
BTW, a couple of weeks ago, I had a solar-powered LED light tower at a job. A wee bit quieter than the diesel ones and bright enough, althought not as much as the diesel.
. BTW, a couple of weeks ago, I had a solar-powered LED light tower at a job. A wee bit quieter than the diesel ones and bright enough, althought not as much as the diesel.
bobsherwood
Senior Member
- Location
- Dallas TX
The good thing about an electronic ballast is, I'll never have to buy an other one. They don't tend to last the 5 year warranty and we have a deal with a suppier here who picks up the bad ballasts every friday and we get replacements on Monday. I feel the same about LED.. I have not see a place that's had them more than two years. I did a test of a popular brand in a parking garage. Six fixtures. Installed 14 months ago. took them out tuesday as 3 of the six failed. Quality!
kbsparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Delmarva, USA
So who pays for the labor to R&R all those bad ballasts?
While some may claim that this is good "job security" I disagree with the concept. We don't like it when we have to keep coming back to the same place, and replace the same ballasts that we installed or replaced just a couple of years earlier. And our customers are beginning to take notice that we have to keep repairing the same lights over and over again.
It does not fare well, since we like to have the reputation that once we fix something, we don't have to deal with it again --- at least for much longer a period of time than we are with these electronic ballasts.
If the ballasts have failed within 2 years of our install, we eat the labor ourselves. Beyond that, we bill `em for it, albeit at a reduced rate, since we specified and installed them originally. The vicious cycle is not good for our reputation, that's for sure.
I don't want to be trapped in the same cycle with the LED's -- and so far some previous comments by others, as well as some limited experience in my own house are all pointing to the same scenario....
While some may claim that this is good "job security" I disagree with the concept. We don't like it when we have to keep coming back to the same place, and replace the same ballasts that we installed or replaced just a couple of years earlier. And our customers are beginning to take notice that we have to keep repairing the same lights over and over again.
It does not fare well, since we like to have the reputation that once we fix something, we don't have to deal with it again --- at least for much longer a period of time than we are with these electronic ballasts.
If the ballasts have failed within 2 years of our install, we eat the labor ourselves. Beyond that, we bill `em for it, albeit at a reduced rate, since we specified and installed them originally. The vicious cycle is not good for our reputation, that's for sure.
I don't want to be trapped in the same cycle with the LED's -- and so far some previous comments by others, as well as some limited experience in my own house are all pointing to the same scenario....
bobsherwood
Senior Member
- Location
- Dallas TX
kbsparky:
I eat the labor cost but it's minimal because this is a unversity and I don't have to travel too far to replace. I can see where it would really make a difference if you had to travel to a location, over and over, to change the same failed ballast.
I have about the same amount of faith in the LED as of now. I hope it improves but, as it stands, I just can not recommend it.
I eat the labor cost but it's minimal because this is a unversity and I don't have to travel too far to replace. I can see where it would really make a difference if you had to travel to a location, over and over, to change the same failed ballast.
I have about the same amount of faith in the LED as of now. I hope it improves but, as it stands, I just can not recommend it.
zbang
Senior Member
- Location
- Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
Something else to put into the equation is integrated ballast or remote ballast. Most fixtures come with an integrrated ballest which wires to 120 or 277vac, and many of those seem to be "cheap". OTOH, the lighting controls manufacturers are starting to sell remote controllers which feed power-limited low voltage to the fixtures. Those are more generally more effecient and use class 2 low voltage wiring.
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
These numbers are from the DOE.
OEM lamp price product ($/klm) 2007/$25, 2010/$10, 2012/$5, 2015/$2
He said the now you could see 50,000 hours which is 12.5 years based on dusk to dawn operation and you could see up to 100,000 hours projected life, which would be 25 years.
He said that the biggest problem with the LED is not the bulb but the driver. He said it doesn't do much good to have a bulb that lasts 100K hours if the driver will only last 50K hours.
esobocinski
Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, MI
I've been fascinated by LED lighting ever since the blue LED discoveries and have been following closely. I have none in my home despite renovations (except for a nightlight, and the other nightlight went back to incandescent). Only in the past year have I thought they have reached the quality that I might consider them, but the cost is still too high unless you have a special need. I'm thinking I'll use some as kitchen undercounter next year. I'm thinking another three to five years for anything else.
I agree with all the comments about shoddy manufacturers, except it's even worse than e-ballasts with lots of small makers in the mix. Anything I've seen in the box stores is junk. It's also really hard to tell whether the technology is new or old even from reputable makers. If they used quality components but it's a three-year-old model, it's not good enough anymore.
When anyone quotes efficiency, make sure they include the drivers. In some cases the drivers eat more power than the LEDs themselves. cowboy's comment on driver longevity is right on too.
I agree with all the comments about shoddy manufacturers, except it's even worse than e-ballasts with lots of small makers in the mix. Anything I've seen in the box stores is junk. It's also really hard to tell whether the technology is new or old even from reputable makers. If they used quality components but it's a three-year-old model, it's not good enough anymore.
When anyone quotes efficiency, make sure they include the drivers. In some cases the drivers eat more power than the LEDs themselves. cowboy's comment on driver longevity is right on too.
bluesmoke...oops
Senior Member
- Location
- Tri-Cities, Washington
The only time I spec LED lamps in a design currently is when the client specifically asks for them. Not worth the headache of getting calls asking why the site lighting costs an arm and a leg.
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