Knob and Tube - home inspection

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Stevenfyeager

Senior Member
Location
United States, Indiana
Occupation
electrical contractor
I've been told in the past by my elec instructor that when a home inspector flags K and T wiring, you don't need to do anything with it as long as it hasn't been insulated around. Whether in the attic or in walls, it is fine to leave it active as long as no insulation is touching it as it could overheat. Is this your experience ? The home inspector can recommend replacement but that is not required.
Thanks.
 

Stevenfyeager

Senior Member
Location
United States, Indiana
Occupation
electrical contractor
I just remembered one of the home inspector's photos shows K and T wiring exposed coming down a wall in the garage. I'm sure these at least will need to be covered, protected by plywood or drywall if I don't replace it.
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
I recently bought (paid cash) a house for anticipated first great grandkid due next march.
House built in 1941. State farm informed me they do not issue policies for houses with K&T.
House was redone in 2014 with new service and K&T replaced, State Farm wanted photos of inspection sticker (on all WA service panels since at least 2010) and of some typical open outlets at far side of house verifying no K&T prior to issuing insurance.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I've been told in the past by my elec instructor that when a home inspector flags K and T wiring, you don't need to do anything with it as long as it hasn't been insulated around. Whether in the attic or in walls, it is fine to leave it active as long as no insulation is touching it as it could overheat. Is this your experience ? The home inspector can recommend replacement but that is not required.
Thanks.
If left in original condition it likely is still in compliance from NEC perspective. Often it has had extensions added to it (most the time not properly for the time period it was done either).

Then there is this:
I have found through my customers that insurance and mortgage companies give homeowners a hard time about K&T whether submersed in insulation or not.
If you can't get insurance you generally can't get a mortgage either.

May not exactly be a problem for the seller other than the so called deficiency may mean potential buyers will want to offer less because they may have to fix it before they can get insurance and/or mortgage. Seller can accept a lower offer and buyer can have it fixed on their own time/terms instead of demanding the seller fix it before they purchase.
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
From what I've seen of installed K&T, just about of it was done by true craftsman and if undisturbed will probably outlast the walls it's inside. The only downside is the lack of EGC and the unknown polarity.
If out of reach, runs of K&T can have their insulation fall off completely without creating a hazard. Unfortunately, those runs eventually need to terminate at a fixture or receptacle, which is where frayed/embrittled insulation becomes a problem. Inside a box, (if there even IS a box!) there's no guarantee of separation or support.

And then there are those pesky three-way circuits installed with two wires. (I forget the name) They sometimes connect the hot wire to the lamp's shell and create a shock hazard. They're not strictly a result of K&T, but they were both installed in the same era and are likely to co-exist.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
...........And then there are those pesky three-way circuits installed with two wires. (I forget the name) ..........

Chicago, Carter, California, Farmer, Handyman, Illinois, Power Beyond, Homeowner, DIY, Hot-wired, Husband, Three-Wire-Hot, Switchback, and my personal favorite, Who-cares?-It works,-and there's-no-inspection!
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
My concern with K&T is not necessarily the wiring itself but the lack of receptacles which causes the use of extension cords and power strips all over.

So AFAIC any place with K&T should be considered on par with a building with no electrical wiring because the building is inadequately wired. I'm not one to say that buildings need to be brought up to present code, but you have to draw the line someplace and I believe this is it.

I don't blame insurance companies for refusing to insure such properties.

-Hal
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
How do you properly transition from K and T to romex if you have to and you aren’t able to get back to the panel?
I would use any means possible to get a new run before adding to K&T.
That said, one consideration is to remember there is no ground wire, so any additional wiring to a receptacle would need to be GFI protected and marked as "No Ground". The same as required for any change from a 2 pronged to 3 pronged receptacle. 406.4(D)(2)
Another consideration before even thinking or starting to run an extension of a K&T is most times the circuit has already been added to and in some cases multiple times, so may present an overloading situation.
Thirdly, need to confirm the neutral line at any splice point, when K&T was used concern for polarity was almost non existent. I've come across energized outer ring on lighting receptacles, a clear safety concern.
Lastly, or more appropriate firstly, consideration for AFCI requirements in 210.12(D) would seem to make adding on to K&T non compliant, not sure of ground connection for proper operation of an AFCI receptacle, and not aware of a duel rated receptacle that would be AFCI/GFCI, as adding to such a circuit also requires GFCI receptacle installed and marked per 406.4(D)(2)(b) with additional consideration as informational note 2 of section references additional requirements found in 250.114 about grounding conductor requirements.
One last thought, not code related, that once you touch that circuit, YOU become from one perspective, liable for the entire circuit not just part touched or added to. Any failure that results in damage or injury YOU or your installation would be looked to as a probable cause, and would need to defend your work. We are living at a very litigious time were attorneys will be looking for anyone to blame and sue. That may be the biggest reason many would not add to a K&T circuit, but insist on replacing, even if they could meet all other aspects of code to be able to add on.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
My concern with K&T is not necessarily the wiring itself but the lack of receptacles which causes the use of extension cords and power strips all over.

So AFAIC any place with K&T should be considered on par with a building with no electrical wiring because the building is inadequately wired. I'm not one to say that buildings need to be brought up to present code, but you have to draw the line someplace and I believe this is it.

I don't blame insurance companies for refusing to insure such properties.

-Hal
No reason additional receptacles couldn't have been added as completely new circuits over the years and yet most the lighting is still the original K & T.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
How do you properly transition from K and T to romex if you have to and you aren’t able to get back to the panel?
Recent codes you don't. You add an extension you most likely are going to need an EGC and possibly AFCI protection. You possibly can snag an EGC from somewhere and be code compliant, but in many cases you went through enough effort you may as well have installed a new circuit back to the panel.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
No reason additional receptacles couldn't have been added as completely new circuits over the years and yet most the lighting is still the original K & T.

Yeah but how many places that old still have the original lighting and switches?

If it's a museum or historic preservation maybe.

-Hal
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
Here in Chicago we have grandfather status, so unless you're remodeling what I think is 60% of the home, and are then required to bring everything up to code, it's not legally required. I still recommend it being replaced every time I encounter it.

The easiest way is to disconnect the knob and tube and use it as a pull string for a new whip.

The standard existing knob and tube hole should be just barely big enough for a 3/8" FMC, but sometimes it isn't.
There's also limitations to lengths of FMC, which can make things tricky. First floor is easy if you can get a whip pulled down to an unfinished basement and hit a box, which I typically plan to be a light of sorts in the basement to avoid randomly spotted boxes all over. If not, transition the FMC to EMT and then hit said box.

Second floor or above takes a little more thought.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Yeah but how many places that old still have the original lighting and switches?

If it's a museum or historic preservation maybe.

-Hal
Switches could be changed, luminaires - the more recently they were replaced the more likely they needed to have an EGC added to be code compliant, unless maybe installing something with no metallic components besides intentional current carrying components like a keyless porcelain lampholder
 

mopowr steve

Senior Member
Location
NW Ohio
Occupation
Electrical contractor
Not only that but technically all the light fixtures I’ve seen for the past 30 years all come with that pesky little sticker that says connect to 90* rated conductors, that rules out knob and tube conductors which I believe are only 60* rated insulation.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Not only that but technically all the light fixtures I’ve seen for the past 30 years all come with that pesky little sticker that says connect to 90* rated conductors, that rules out knob and tube conductors which I believe are only 60* rated insulation.
"Stickers? Stickers? We don't need no stinkin' stickers!"
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
... light fixtures ... come with that pesky little sticker that says connect to 90° rated conductors ...
True, and it might be a technical listing violation, but it's fairly unlikely that fixtures will be outfitted with incandescent bulbs, or that the actual temperature will be anywhere the design maximum.
 
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