K&T sign off??

[jjhoward]

A customer's home owners insurance co (State Farm)asks for an electrician to "sign off" on the K&T wiring in this house they are about to buy. No sign off, no policy. (Anybody here want me to send you the paper to sign? ) Obviously, load testing, visual examination of SOME of the K&T can be done. Is there anything else that can be done to assess the health of K&T wiring. Or do you just run, or only endorse house rewiring??

 

[hurk27]

Re: K&T sign off??

I would load each circuit an each branch of that circuit to 80% and view it with a inferred camera to see if there are any hot spots. Turn the thermostat way down before doing it or run a AC to cool down the place. This will allow a more clearer picture. And some paths of the current can be followed.

 

[jjhoward]

Re: K&T sign off??

Ok, are there dial-a-loads? I have seen some handheld gear that will present a 15amp load and extrapolate for what a 20amp load will do. What type of accuracy will an IR camera provide? Even if I had the proper gear to simulate a load and sensors (IR camera) to indicate temp, what is pass/fail criteria. The temp rating of the wire? Old wire...60C or less?

 

[jeff43222]

Re: K&T sign off??

You might want to suggest that they switch to Allstate. I have Allstate for my own home, and about half of my wiring is K&T, 1922 edition. When I get some free time, I'm going to replace it, but lately I've been too busy re-wiring other people's houses.

What's on this form (could you post it)? Are they asking you to guarantee that the K&T is in good shape? Or can you inspect it as you see fit and report the results? You might want to run the form past your lawyer and see if it exposes you to liability if you sign off on the wiring but there was a hidden problem that you didn't find.

[ March 25, 2005, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: K&T sign off??

All the forms we ever signed basically asked for opinion.The wording would be whats important here. Post letter if you can.Chances are low that any old house with K and T have no violations from years of add ons and whatever but i have passed a few with minor repairs

[ March 25, 2005, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[jjhoward]

Re: K&T sign off??

I don't have the form from the h/o insurance co yet. I will suggest to them Allstate. If/when I get that form I will certainly post it. The biggest challenge I see with K&T wiring is to accurately determine what circuits in the house are using the K&T. Every house I have ever seen with K&T has had some upgrades so there is a mix of new and old buried in walls/attics/floors. It is possible but mucho work. Any thougths on loading gear?

 

[pierre]

Re: K&T sign off??

You should have your attorney look at the form before you sign it.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: K&T sign off??

pierre
Member
Member # 2889

posted March 26, 2005 09:14 AM
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You should have your attorney look at the form before you sign it.

Good idea but the cost of attorney and my time going that route would be to high.

I have not seen any that tried to hold you responsable for anything.They ask things like size of service,is there gfci protection in bath room and kitchens,is there any exsposed wiring,is system grounded,do 3 prong outlets have a grounding conductor.The biggest violation i see is the mis use of 3 prong outlets.Customers often think they upgraded by replacing them non grounded ones.
Did a friend a favor by having him meet be at the property.I then pointed out what i should not be seeing.Then when he corrected it we have the real inspection He passed.

 

[willyj]

Re: K&T sign off??

Originally posted by jimwalker:
[QB] pierre
Member
Member # 2889

posted March 26, 2005 09:14 AM
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You should have your attorney look at the form before you sign it.

Good idea but the cost of attorney and my time going that route would be to high.


The cost of an attorney and time can never be high in protecting YOU and that customer.

Bill

 

[jjhoward]

Re: K&T sign off??

I will probably have an attorney friend review the form. He does attorney stuff for me and I do electrician stuff for him. Barter: sometimes even better than cash.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: K&T sign off??

If it asks for more than my opinion i would just say no thanks to the job.To say that any system you did not install is to code and safe is foolish.Have seen this form writen differantly by company to company so getting ruling on one will not help on the next.

 

[charlie]

Re: K&T sign off??

With all the jokes about attorneys and the high charges for their work, they really are worth the price, especially if it saves your company, your house, your kids, and your dog.

 

[macmikeman]

Re: K&T sign off??

I have rewired out k+t houses dozens of times. In each case I found at least one spot in the house where the insulation was gone , leaving bare wire. Most times it is where the wires are close together as in the outlets. I would not sign off a k+t job ever.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: K&T sign off??

I would not care to insure any K&T house.It is like insuring 16 year old boy that just got a license.While it was a great system for its time ,it's life span is over.80 year old wiring needs to be replaced.I passed a job that i rewired a couple years ago.Now that it is rewired maybe it will make it another 80 years.It still looks ugly but is safe.He was forced to rewire to keep his insurance.

 

[jjhoward]

Re: K&T sign off??

I am not seeing any logic in me sticking my neck out. I am not in the insurance biz. I will gladly rewire the place and then sign off else they should find another electrician/insurance guy.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: K&T sign off??

Why don't they just request an inspection from the county ? At a cost sure but we are electricians not inspectors.Willing to bet the county refuses.

 

[jjhoward]

Re: K&T sign off??

Thank you all for your input. It is very appreciated.

 

[jjhoward]

Re: K&T sign off??

I am still wondering about equipment to load a circuit. What is there other than this hand held unit that does 15 amp load + 20 amp extrapolation?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: K&T sign off??

I am not about to go putting a full load on anyones circuit unless i need to.Think where you stand if something opens up under this load.It worked before you messed with it ,so now fix it free

 

[jjhoward]

Re: K&T sign off??

Good point Jim. That would really ruin my day Could a load tester do that? Sounds like the wiring would be acting like a fusable link. Maybe another clause is needed in the contract if I am applying loads to assess house wiring.