Journeymen playing E.C.
- Thread starter GG
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
When I get my journeyman, I won't have as solid a commercial background as someone who's done commercial for years, but then again, the lines can be blurry between what would require a "commercial" j-man license versus "residential".
We've had houses that were all but zoned commercial (and yes, that guy had a heckuva garage, I hear) and we sent a commercial journeyman to take care of it.
Save the complication for the code, keep licensing simple and inspect the work.
You forgot the rest of the recipe: Inspections.
When I get my journeyman, I won't have as solid a commercial background as someone who's done commercial for years, but then again, the lines can be blurry between what would require a "commercial" j-man license versus "residential".
We've had houses that were all but zoned commercial (and yes, that guy had a heckuva garage, I hear) and we sent a commercial journeyman to take care of it.
Save the complication for the code, keep licensing simple and inspect the work.
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
In VA (where I grew up), a Journeyman was someone that had passed a test and was allowed to work on a job as the lead person with one (maybe two, but I'm not sure) helper. The test was pretty basic stuff like number of bends in conduit, box fill, but no calculations. Journeyman were NOT allowed to pull a permit. You had to show 4 years experience as a helper in order to take the test.
Then after a year (maybe two) you could sit for the "masters" exam. That one had the calculations. If you had the "masters" qualification, you could work as many helpers on the job as you wanted. You could also apply for an electrical contractors license and then you could pull a permit.
In NC (where I live/work now), there is no state Journeyman certification. There is no "masters" certification. There is only an electrical contracting classification. The journeyman requirements are more of a local jurisdiction thing.
In VA (where I grew up), a Journeyman was someone that had passed a test and was allowed to work on a job as the lead person with one (maybe two, but I'm not sure) helper. The test was pretty basic stuff like number of bends in conduit, box fill, but no calculations. Journeyman were NOT allowed to pull a permit. You had to show 4 years experience as a helper in order to take the test.
Then after a year (maybe two) you could sit for the "masters" exam. That one had the calculations. If you had the "masters" qualification, you could work as many helpers on the job as you wanted. You could also apply for an electrical contractors license and then you could pull a permit.
In NC (where I live/work now), there is no state Journeyman certification. There is no "masters" certification. There is only an electrical contracting classification. The journeyman requirements are more of a local jurisdiction thing.
highkvoltage
Senior Member
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
Sometimes I don't mind Journeyman playing EC they might just getting their feet wet and thinking about atarting a business. If they are only doing small jobs. But if they are doing large work after hours I'll turn them in. The ones that piss me off are these handymen that even advertise they do electrical work on the side of their vans. They have no training and their wiring methods are dangerous!
Sometimes I don't mind Journeyman playing EC they might just getting their feet wet and thinking about atarting a business. If they are only doing small jobs. But if they are doing large work after hours I'll turn them in. The ones that piss me off are these handymen that even advertise they do electrical work on the side of their vans. They have no training and their wiring methods are dangerous!
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
I have engaged the servcies of such "handymen" from time to time. It's convenient sometimes to have someone install a dishwasher, or a disposal, or something similar without having to two or three different contractors involved, none of whom really want anything to do with a one or two hour job.
For the kind of wiring these guys tend to do, I have not seen anything unsafe. I am not surprised that there might be some, but I have also seen far worse stuff from guys that have union cards and have been doing it for many years.
I have engaged the servcies of such "handymen" from time to time. It's convenient sometimes to have someone install a dishwasher, or a disposal, or something similar without having to two or three different contractors involved, none of whom really want anything to do with a one or two hour job.
For the kind of wiring these guys tend to do, I have not seen anything unsafe. I am not surprised that there might be some, but I have also seen far worse stuff from guys that have union cards and have been doing it for many years.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
Bob, so no one wants involved in a one or two hr. job. That's called a service call and the Yellow Pages are full of contractors that make a living doing just that ( they don't do it for free or a public service ). As far as poor quality work from union electricians, you may have seen this, the air lines have drunk pilots from time to time. Would you like to let a handyman get at the controls the next time you fly. I find it hard to believe that you would hire anyone to hook up a disposal or dishwasher. If your wife cuts your hair the least you can do is hook up the dishwasher. Legally in most areas a handyman can hook up such things but it never stops there, soon the guy is doing room additions and rewires, then he's down at your business trouble-shooting 277V live. He has no training, no license and no insurance. When he gets hit and falls of the ladder and breaks his fool neck guess who gets to foot the bill ( all to save a few bucks ). His widow gets to live in your house and you want have to worry about the high cost of electrical work because the landlord at your little apartment will take care of it ( his widow also gets most of your pay check ). You just killed a laborer. If that union guy messes up it's all covered, he gets buried and they send out another one.
Bob, so no one wants involved in a one or two hr. job. That's called a service call and the Yellow Pages are full of contractors that make a living doing just that ( they don't do it for free or a public service ). As far as poor quality work from union electricians, you may have seen this, the air lines have drunk pilots from time to time. Would you like to let a handyman get at the controls the next time you fly. I find it hard to believe that you would hire anyone to hook up a disposal or dishwasher. If your wife cuts your hair the least you can do is hook up the dishwasher. Legally in most areas a handyman can hook up such things but it never stops there, soon the guy is doing room additions and rewires, then he's down at your business trouble-shooting 277V live. He has no training, no license and no insurance. When he gets hit and falls of the ladder and breaks his fool neck guess who gets to foot the bill ( all to save a few bucks ). His widow gets to live in your house and you want have to worry about the high cost of electrical work because the landlord at your little apartment will take care of it ( his widow also gets most of your pay check ). You just killed a laborer. If that union guy messes up it's all covered, he gets buried and they send out another one.
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
LOL, that's funny (and yet, not).
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
Guys can we can drop the union, non-union references.
There are good and bad licensed electricians on both sides of that line.
Here we are all electricians regardless of any labor affiliations.
Guys can we can drop the union, non-union references.
There are good and bad licensed electricians on both sides of that line.
Here we are all electricians regardless of any labor affiliations.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
Hardworkingstiff, I didn't really mean to be funny but to make a point of reality. Most home and business owners wont check out the laws when it comes to hiring these jack leg contractors. If they did, they wouldn't hire them in the first place. Workman's Comp. is meant to protect the employer. If you hire someone that is not a legitimate contractor, you have just become the employer of temp. labor. If people want to have employees without insurance, that's their problem but they should read the rules first. Crying later is not going to help. I have checked and most of the handymen in our area don't even have a business license so how could they possibly be insured . They ones with license & insurance aren't that cheap anyway.
Hardworkingstiff, I didn't really mean to be funny but to make a point of reality. Most home and business owners wont check out the laws when it comes to hiring these jack leg contractors. If they did, they wouldn't hire them in the first place. Workman's Comp. is meant to protect the employer. If you hire someone that is not a legitimate contractor, you have just become the employer of temp. labor. If people want to have employees without insurance, that's their problem but they should read the rules first. Crying later is not going to help. I have checked and most of the handymen in our area don't even have a business license so how could they possibly be insured . They ones with license & insurance aren't that cheap anyway.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
I apologize for the "union" reference.
I did not mean to start any union issues
I just meant a "real" electrician. And union guys carry cards that say they are "real" electricians.
<added>
Do non-union electricans get cards of some sort as well? I don't think I have ever seen one.
Incidentally, the guy I hired had some kind of business license and claimed to be insured. He was doing it part time, but seemed to be pretty good at a lot of different things. His real job was as a sheriff's police officer.
He finished my deck when the guy building it went belly up, and I was just too busy. Made some very nice wooden gates. Still don't sag 7 years later.
[ July 16, 2005, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
I apologize for the "union" reference.
I did not mean to start any union issues
I just meant a "real" electrician. And union guys carry cards that say they are "real" electricians.
<added>
Do non-union electricans get cards of some sort as well? I don't think I have ever seen one.
Incidentally, the guy I hired had some kind of business license and claimed to be insured. He was doing it part time, but seemed to be pretty good at a lot of different things. His real job was as a sheriff's police officer.
He finished my deck when the guy building it went belly up, and I was just too busy. Made some very nice wooden gates. Still don't sag 7 years later.
[ July 16, 2005, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
Here in New England Union and Non-Union electricians are required to carry their state issued licenses while at work, we also must present it upon request. The laws vary on that part but CT for instance requires I show my license upon request of "any interested party"
My RI license has my picture on it, my current CT and MA licenses are simply cards with my name and license number.
Apprentices must be state registered and carry an apprentice card when at work.
I guess that depends on the State of residence.
Here in New England Union and Non-Union electricians are required to carry their state issued licenses while at work, we also must present it upon request. The laws vary on that part but CT for instance requires I show my license upon request of "any interested party"
My RI license has my picture on it, my current CT and MA licenses are simply cards with my name and license number.
Apprentices must be state registered and carry an apprentice card when at work.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
Bob, real electricians don't need a card. There is a state number on the truck or va,that's the master's license that they are working under. It is his/her responsibility to make sure that the people that are sent out are qualified. You stated that you are not a PE. So there is someone that takes responsibility for your work. They put their stamp on there saying old Bob is a qualified engineer. So what's the difference. By the way I'm not a union member but I do respect the IBEW. Saying that someone gets burried and another one gets sent out is just what happens, if it's union , non-union or public utilities. I was making the point that the home or business owner is not liable for injury or death of a professional.
Bob, real electricians don't need a card. There is a state number on the truck or va,that's the master's license that they are working under. It is his/her responsibility to make sure that the people that are sent out are qualified. You stated that you are not a PE. So there is someone that takes responsibility for your work. They put their stamp on there saying old Bob is a qualified engineer. So what's the difference. By the way I'm not a union member but I do respect the IBEW. Saying that someone gets burried and another one gets sent out is just what happens, if it's union , non-union or public utilities. I was making the point that the home or business owner is not liable for injury or death of a professional.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
the work I do does not require a PE stamp.
the work I do does not require a PE stamp.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
This is considered necessary in order to ensure that a job is staffed with 'real' electricians and not a bunch of laborers.
Another interesting note is that even though the contract and a permit for a job are obtained by the company the licensed electricians in the field are still held responsible for following the code.
If the boss tells you to break the code you are supposed / required to say no.
That is not the law here in New England regardless of who pulled the permit and the 8 or 10 license numbers on the side of my company truck I am required by law in MA, CT and RI to carry and present my license upon request.
This is considered necessary in order to ensure that a job is staffed with 'real' electricians and not a bunch of laborers.
Another interesting note is that even though the contract and a permit for a job are obtained by the company the licensed electricians in the field are still held responsible for following the code.
If the boss tells you to break the code you are supposed / required to say no.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
Didn't mean to offend the states that do require JW's to carry cards. I know that the rules vary from state to state and it's hard to cover them all in one argument. But in every state there is some way to tell who is responsible for the job. I have herd the argument that the men sent to the job were not licensed so why sould I hire a contractor. I wish that there was a requirement for everyone to carry a card in every state , it would make things much more simple. We have such a requirment for plumbers but it still gets broken. But my argument stands that someone is responsible and liable for damages, injuries or deaths on a job done by legitimate contractors and the homeowner can be safe from law suits.
Didn't mean to offend the states that do require JW's to carry cards. I know that the rules vary from state to state and it's hard to cover them all in one argument. But in every state there is some way to tell who is responsible for the job. I have herd the argument that the men sent to the job were not licensed so why sould I hire a contractor. I wish that there was a requirement for everyone to carry a card in every state , it would make things much more simple. We have such a requirment for plumbers but it still gets broken. But my argument stands that someone is responsible and liable for damages, injuries or deaths on a job done by legitimate contractors and the homeowner can be safe from law suits.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
A customer can sign a waver on the liability insurance requirement but why would they?
You did not offend me I was just explaining how it is in this area.
I agree with you there, one of the requirements to pull a permit here is proof of liability insurance.
A customer can sign a waver on the liability insurance requirement but why would they?
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
" Petersonra" or Bob, You have stated that you are not a PE and will probably never be a PE and now you say that your work does not require seal or stamp. So which government agency or untility do you work for ( just ball park it ). I would be interested in knowing what a man so against licensing does for a living and how he comes in contact with so many poor quality electricians.
" Petersonra" or Bob, You have stated that you are not a PE and will probably never be a PE and now you say that your work does not require seal or stamp. So which government agency or untility do you work for ( just ball park it ). I would be interested in knowing what a man so against licensing does for a living and how he comes in contact with so many poor quality electricians.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
Over the years I have seen many, many machine or other system installs. Most of the electrical work is pretty good from the pipe and wire side. Actually hooking things up according to wiring drawings is another story. Construction electricians semm incapable of understanding or following any kind of control schematic. It's just not in their training or experience. Thats why anything I can get prewired before it gets in the field is done that way.
but most of the time, it is near impossible to get someone who would do the job right to work on it due to various non-technical issues.
<edited to remove union reference>
[ July 18, 2005, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
I don't work for any government or utility. I do automation and specialty items for a system integrator.
Over the years I have seen many, many machine or other system installs. Most of the electrical work is pretty good from the pipe and wire side. Actually hooking things up according to wiring drawings is another story. Construction electricians semm incapable of understanding or following any kind of control schematic. It's just not in their training or experience. Thats why anything I can get prewired before it gets in the field is done that way.
but most of the time, it is near impossible to get someone who would do the job right to work on it due to various non-technical issues.
<edited to remove union reference>
[ July 18, 2005, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
I agree with you Bob. You are not likely to find many construction electricians that are up to date on control and automation wiring. I just read a past from someone that was trying to learn to read ladder diagrams in one easy lesson , it's not going to happen. The problem is, everyone specializes in one area, not because they want to, but to be more cost effective. In the work you do it's not uncommon to hire more than one contractor. One for power, one for controls and another for voice & data. To judge construction electricians on their control work is like judging a proctologist on the way he gives eye exams. Did you ever consider how you would rate as a construction electrician. As easy as it looks, you could be surprised. When we were short of help on an industrial job we brought over a couple of pipe fitters ( guys in shape for it) and they found out the pay checks were earned in the electrical field.
I agree with you Bob. You are not likely to find many construction electricians that are up to date on control and automation wiring. I just read a past from someone that was trying to learn to read ladder diagrams in one easy lesson , it's not going to happen. The problem is, everyone specializes in one area, not because they want to, but to be more cost effective. In the work you do it's not uncommon to hire more than one contractor. One for power, one for controls and another for voice & data. To judge construction electricians on their control work is like judging a proctologist on the way he gives eye exams. Did you ever consider how you would rate as a construction electrician. As easy as it looks, you could be surprised. When we were short of help on an industrial job we brought over a couple of pipe fitters ( guys in shape for it) and they found out the pay checks were earned in the electrical field.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Journeymen playing E.C.
I know I would be a awful electrician.
I have done a few bends in 3/4 EMT and the results were not pretty.
a lot of those guys are just artists when it comes to bending stuff.
i get frustrated when forced to use people who are just plain not very good at something. it usually means I end up fixing it at midnight some time during startup.
i wish there was some way to get around the constraints of not being able to bring in one's own people to hook things up, but it is almost never allowed.
I know I would be a awful electrician.
I have done a few bends in 3/4 EMT and the results were not pretty.
a lot of those guys are just artists when it comes to bending stuff.
i get frustrated when forced to use people who are just plain not very good at something. it usually means I end up fixing it at midnight some time during startup.
i wish there was some way to get around the constraints of not being able to bring in one's own people to hook things up, but it is almost never allowed.
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