Inspector rejected grounding installation for single family service.

[mwm1752]

250.50 Grounding Electrode System
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist , one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used.


If your water pipe exist as described then the connection requirements are mandatory -- new construction usually has a concrete encased electrode (footer steel) just because the electrical contractor forgets to or ignores to prepare does not mean it should be excluded -- no ground rods needed with footer steel.

 

[bilbuz53]

I bet your metallic water pipe is not as impossible to access as you think. The 5 foot rule is clearly for interior connections. If you connect your gec to a qualifying metal water pipe on the exterior of the structure you don't have any 5 foot restrictions, regardless of the millions of misinterpretations of the NEC regarding that factor.

What would you consider as a "qualifying metallic water pipe" Are we talking about a water spigot? Were not talking Supplemental. It has been practice in this area that

if the water main is hell and gone then they allow the installation of 2 ground rods. This jurisdiction has not required Supplemental Grounds for what ever reason but they do require CO detectors to be installed when a permit is pulled. We work in 8 separate jurisdictions and each has it special amendments that keep us scratching our hairless heads..

 

[jaylectricity]

A spigot is not a qualifying pipe. IMO a qualifying pipe is continuous to the main from the street. That means no couplings, Ts, etc. A spigot could become disconnected by a plumber, leaving your GEC disconnected from the water main. And chances are, nobody would even know that.

 

[GoldDigger]

A spigot is not a qualifying pipe. IMO a qualifying pipe is continuous to the main from the street. That means no couplings, Ts, etc. A spigot could become disconnected by a plumber, leaving your GEC disconnected from the water main. And chances are, nobody would even know that.

I have to differ with you on that one, since I do not see the presence or absence of water utility couplings between the main and the meter as being of particularly great importance. I am not sure just what "from the main to the street" which I see as the same place more or less, is supposed to mean.
If WACO chooses to install a dielectric union, they can do that whether or not there is an existing metallic coupling.
I do see your point about the ease with which plumbing within the confines of the building might be changed.

 

[macmikeman]

What would you consider as a "qualifying metallic water pipe" Are we talking about a water spigot? Were not talking Supplemental. It has been practice in this area that

if the water main is hell and gone then they allow the installation of 2 ground rods. This jurisdiction has not required Supplemental Grounds for what ever reason but they do require CO detectors to be installed when a permit is pulled. We work in 8 separate jurisdictions and each has it special amendments that keep us scratching our hairless heads..

Well I'm no inspector or famous Piperunner or anything like that, but I can read a code book and the one I bought says 10 foot minimum in contact with soil water pipe in 250-52. Nothing in there about couplings, nothing about spigots. Ten foot of contact to earth is what qualifies the water pipe as a grounding electrode, not whether it is inside or outside of the building. Just stop and think for a second as to why it is used - to ground the electrical system and then you can understand why the 5'foot rule was written with the words ''interior connections'' when referencing the 5'foot from point of entry. Outside, where it is in the ground- its grounded. I get to use sprinkler boxes if I like to make the connection point of buried exterior water lines accessible. Most times I install meter/mains on the exterior of buildings and the handy exterior water pipe in contact with the soil is my target for the water ground. Sometimes they are further away from the point of entry into the building than 5' but they still qualify, at least for the 08 code book we are under.

 

[bilbuz53]

Our crew upgraded a single family residential service consisitng of 1-200 amp MBP. The water main was inaccessable so they decided to install 2 ground rods at least 6' apart and 2 seperate runs of #6cu from the bonding bar, 1 to each to each rod.
The Inspector rejected the installation stating that we cannot parallel grounding conductors.

We could have simply jumped the rods together but decided since ther were 2 electrodes required we felt they should be seperate runs.

Im Stumped...

WHEN I ASKED FOR ART./SEC. THIS IS THE INSPECTORS REPLY:

Mr. (Name removed), In reviewing your question, as long as both ground rods are at least 6 foot apart, the installation as competed would be code compliant. Please reschedule the heavy up for an inspection. Thank you, (Name removed) Building Inspector, DPS (xxx)-xxx-xxxx

 

[stephena]

Your installation is correct. What surprises me is that an inspector would think that connecting electrodes in parallel would be against code. So a less resistive path to earth for lightning, surges, or unintensional contact with higher line voltages is detrimental. He is an idiot.

 

[GoldDigger]

...He is an idiot.

Well, at least he is trainable (and willing to respectfully admit his mistake), which is a large step in the right direction.
Ignorance should never be confused with idiocy.

 

[jumper]

Well, at least he is trainable (and willing to respectfully admit his mistake), which is a large step in the right direction.
Ignorance should never be confused with idiocy.

Well said Goldy.:thumbsup:

 

[jxofaltrds]

Well I'm no inspector or famous Piperunner or anything like that, but I can read a code book and the one I bought says 10 foot minimum in contact with soil water pipe in 250-52. Nothing in there about couplings, nothing about spigots. Ten foot of contact to earth is what qualifies the water pipe as a grounding electrode, not whether it is inside or outside of the building. Just stop and think for a second as to why it is used - to ground the electrical system and then you can understand why the 5'foot rule was written with the words ''interior connections'' when referencing the 5'foot from point of entry. Outside, where it is in the ground- its grounded. I get to use sprinkler boxes if I like to make the connection point of buried exterior water lines accessible. Most times I install meter/mains on the exterior of buildings and the handy exterior water pipe in contact with the soil is my target for the water ground. Sometimes they are further away from the point of entry into the building than 5' but they still qualify, at least for the 08 code book we are under.

Red is incorrect.

The 5' 'rule' is to eliminate interior objectionable current.

 

[bilbuz53]

Being that we are in Maryland where water pipes are buried below the frost line or a minimum of 3 ft below grade and do not at times have "reasonable" access to the water main and the customer would not appreciate us cutting through there house to get to it..

 

[jumper]

Being that we are in Maryland where water pipes are buried below the frost line or a minimum of 3 ft below grade and do not at times have "reasonable" access to the water main and the customer would not appreciate us cutting through there house to get to it..

Reasonable and the NEC have nothing in common in many cases.

 

[macmikeman]

Red is incorrect.

The 5' 'rule' is to eliminate interior objectionable current.

I'm confused. So you are saying the purpose of the GEC and the Grounding Electrode is not to ground the system, but to eliminate interior objectionable current? That is what the equipment grounding (bonding) condutor's purpose is, not the earthing , and secondly the 5 foot rule is because of the tendency to replace interior metal water piping with plastic pipe which breaks the continuity of the metal water system to the earthed part of the metal water piping system, a situation that is not going to happen if you land the gec on the exterior to a section of metal water pipe that is at least 3 meters (10 feet) in length per 250.52 and in direct contact with the soil. You know- grounded... Personally I think the code should be revised to require the gec be attached to an exterior metal water pipe (if there is one present) and not allow for interior connections at all regardless of 5' or no 5'. Bonding interior metal piping should cover the interior and the GE should be in contact with soil which the exterior metal water pipe provides.

 

[Strathead]

While I see your point, I see no exception for not using the water pipe as an electrode if it qualifies. Unlike a CEE, the seems to be no relief because it is unaccessible, so I gather an accessible point within 5 ft. of entering the structure must be made and a connection made.

Or just dig it up at the footer and replace a 1 foot section with PVC. The water pipe as a grounding electrode is probably the most archaic section of the code.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I'm confused. So you are saying the purpose of the GEC and the Grounding Electrode is not to ground the system, but to eliminate interior objectionable current? That is what the equipment grounding (bonding) condutor's purpose is, not the earthing , and secondly the 5 foot rule is because of the tendency to replace interior metal water piping with plastic pipe which breaks the continuity of the metal water system to the earthed part of the metal water piping system, a situation that is not going to happen if you land the gec on the exterior to a section of metal water pipe that is at least 3 meters (10 feet) in length per 250.52 and in direct contact with the soil. You know- grounded... Personally I think the code should be revised to require the gec be attached to an exterior metal water pipe (if there is one present) and not allow for interior connections at all regardless of 5' or no 5'. Bonding interior metal piping should cover the interior and the GE should be in contact with soil which the exterior metal water pipe provides.

Not sure what you are asking me. Watch this first and see if it changes your question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNZC782SzAQ

 

[Strathead]

Red is incorrect.

The 5' 'rule' is to eliminate interior objectionable current.

I am old enough to remember when they made this rule change, and while I don't remember where, I was under the impression that the 5' rule was to minimize the possibility that an unknown or knowing person would come in and repair the piping before the bond with non-metallic piping. I think this is born up by the exception for building under maintenance supervision.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I am old enough to remember when they made this rule change, and while I don't remember where, I was under the impression that the 5' rule was to minimize the possibility that an unknown or knowing person would come in and repair the piping before the bond with non-metallic piping. I think this is born up by the exception for building under maintenance supervision.

That may be true.

 

[iwire]

Red is incorrect.

The 5' 'rule' is to eliminate interior objectionable current.

Please show the source of this as without it that is just your opinion.

 

[iwire]

I am old enough to remember when they made this rule change, and while I don't remember where, I was under the impression that the 5' rule was to minimize the possibility that an unknown or knowing person would come in and repair the piping before the bond with non-metallic piping. I think this is born up by the exception for building under maintenance supervision.

This in my own opinion is correct

 

[jxofaltrds]

Please show the source of this as without it that is just your opinion.

True.

This in my own opinion is correct

Also true.