Improper PE Stamping on Plan Sets

[Phil Timmons]

Yes wind load is generally the primary issue everywhere. More attachments should be required in hurricane country, to be sure, but it can still be reduced to a table.

If you lost panels at 45mph wind gusts that's almost certainly installation error not design error. Minimum design wind speed for the whole country is 110mph, higher where necessary.

I know my comments aren't immediately helpful but maybe can be passed around and bear fruit over time. If any AHJs will be willing to listen to how California does it (~10GW rooftop solar installed). <rolls eyes> ('moronathon', I'll remember that.)

Agree on the issues of Wind Load . . . that particular break-out go a bit involved. Under NDA for specifics so I cannot detail anything, but there was plenty of blame to go around. I came in after-the-fact for forensic photos and details. (thankfully).

as far as . . . . Texas listening to California . . . . That aint happening in our lifetimes. ;P

btw, Thanks for Leading the Way. Some of US do respect you for that.

 

[dkidd]

§ 1001.251. CONSUMER INTEREST INFORMATION.
(a) The board shall prepare information of consumer interest describing:
(1) the regulatory functions of the board under this chapter and Chapter 1071; and
(2) the procedures by which consumer complaints are filed with and resolved by the board.
(b) The board shall make the information available to the public and appropriate state agencies.
(c) The board shall maintain on the board’s Internet website:
(1) information regarding the procedure for filing a complaint with the board; and
(2) a form that a person may use to file a complaint with the board.

 

[ggunn]

But back to the intent of my would-be start . . . . What is best for tamping this down?

Complaints to the Board?

That's where you would start, I believe.

 

[pv_n00b]

Keep in mind that PE rules are state-specific and there is significant variation. In CA a civil PE can seal anything if they decide they have the competency to do it. It goes back to how the PE laws were formed, with civil coming first and the rest getting tacked on later. Civil PEs in CA are treated very differently from EE and ME PEs. But the reverse is not true, an EE PE can't seal a civil drawing.

 

[pv_n00b]

Going by the ethics / competence portion.

For full level -- IR not a PE, and not on the board, so you are correct -- I cannot declare it so.

But back to the intent of my would-be start . . . . What is best for tamping this down?

If you see someone who is not a PE pretending to be one or a PE that is not following the legal requirements for the state they are practicing in then report them to the state board. I occasionally run across plan set shops with no PEs offering PE sealed plan sets and I will point the CA state board at them. Usually, they get a phone call and are told to stop offering services they are not allowed to offer and that is enough. Some states are more responsive than others.

 

[ggunn]

If you see someone who is not a PE pretending to be one or a PE that is not following the legal requirements for the state they are practicing in then report them to the state board. I occasionally run across plan set shops with no PEs offering PE sealed plan sets and I will point the CA state board at them. Usually, they get a phone call and are told to stop offering services they are not allowed to offer and that is enough. Some states are more responsive than others.

PE seals have a number and signature on them that refers to an individual engineer. How can someone pretend to be a PE without claiming to be someone in particular?

 

[mayanees]

I've been a member of the Delaware Association of Professional Engineers (DAPE) Law Enforcement & Ethics committee for 20 years. In my opinion, if the PE who seals the drawings is claiming to be competent structurally, civilly and electrically, and he/she is not, then that would warrant a complaint be filed with the DAPE against the individual who stamped the drawings. I can't say I've ever seen a complaint against anyone who claims to be competent in all those areas.

 

[jaggedben]

PE seals have a number and signature on them that refers to an individual engineer. How can someone pretend to be a PE without claiming to be someone in particular?

Fake stamp with fake license number?

I also ran into some people once using other people's stamps, which is of course even worse.

 

[petersonra]

Fake stamp with fake license number?

I also ran into some people once using other people's stamps, which is of course even worse.

How is that worse?

 

[jaggedben]

How is that worse?

Um, I think it is clearly worse to steal someone else's identity than to make up a fake one. For one thing, practically speaking, it puts the burden of proof on a legitimate engineer to prove his/her stamp was forged in order to disclaim liability.

 

[gadfly56]

I've been a member of the Delaware Association of Professional Engineers (DAPE) Law Enforcement & Ethics committee for 20 years. In my opinion, if the PE who seals the drawings is claiming to be competent structurally, civilly and electrically, and he/she is not, then that would warrant a complaint be filed with the DAPE against the individual who stamped the drawings. I can't say I've ever seen a complaint against anyone who claims to be competent in all those areas.

I know that multi-discipline drawings often have stamps from each discipline on them. Phil, was there only one stamp on the drawings?

 

[gadfly56]

§137.59 ENGINEERS’ ACTIONS SHALL BE COMPETENT
(a) Engineers shall practice only in their areas of competence.
(b) The engineer shall not perform any engineering assignment for which the engineer is not qualified by education or experience to perform adequately and competently. However, an engineer may accept an assignment which includes phases outside of the engineer's area of competence if those other phases are performed by qualified licensed professionals, consultants, associates, or employees.
(c) The engineer shall not express an engineering opinion in deposition or before a court, administrative agency, or other public forum which is contrary to generally accepted scientific and engineering principles without fully disclosing the basis and rationale for such an opinion. Engineering opinions which are rendered as expert testimony and contain quantitative values shall be supported by adequate modeling or analysis of the phenomena described.

Is the P.E. license discipline specific?
No, Texas does not license by discipline. Your primary discipline will be listed
in the Board records, based on what you indicate on your application. If you
have expertise in another discipline and can submit sufficient evidence of
competency in that discipline, rule 133.97(k), the Board can list a second or
third discipline in the records. However, the licensed engineer is bound to only
practice engineering in areas where
competent, trained, and qualified or may
be subject to enforcement actions.

This is the same for NJ. In fact, back when I got my license the license didn't even carry the discipline you tested in. At the time, IIRC, your area of test choices were Electrical, Civil, Mechanical, and Chemical. If you search licenses in NJ, the only return on look up is "Professional Engineer".

 

[GoldDigger]

§137.59 ENGINEERS’ ACTIONS SHALL BE COMPETENT
(a) Engineers shall practice only in their areas of competence.
(b) The engineer shall not perform any engineering assignment for which the engineer is not qualified by education or experience to perform adequately and competently. However, an engineer may accept an assignment which includes phases outside of the engineer's area of competence if those other phases are performed by qualified licensed professionals, consultants, associates, or employees.
(c) The engineer shall not express an engineering opinion in deposition or before a court, administrative agency, or other public forum which is contrary to generally accepted scientific and engineering principles without fully disclosing the basis and rationale for such an opinion. Engineering opinions which are rendered as expert testimony and contain quantitative values shall be supported by adequate modeling or analysis of the phenomena described.

Is the P.E. license discipline specific?
No, Texas does not license by discipline. Your primary discipline will be listed
in the Board records, based on what you indicate on your application. If you
have expertise in another discipline and can submit sufficient evidence of
competency in that discipline, rule 133.97(k), the Board can list a second or
third discipline in the records. However, the licensed engineer is bound to only
practice engineering in areas where
competent, trained, and qualified or may
be subject to enforcement actions.

But in whose judgement? Are there objective standards to refer to?
Some states licensing structure leaves this entirely up to the judgement of the PE in question.
Do private professional associations in those states enforce more specific limitations?

 

[dkidd]

But in whose judgement? Are there objective standards to refer to?
Some states licensing structure leaves this entirely up to the judgement of the PE in question.
Do private professional associations in those states enforce more specific limitations?

"If you have expertise in another discipline and can submit sufficient evidence of
competency in that discipline, rule 133.97(k), the Board can list a second or
third discipline in the records."

 

[jim dungar]

But in whose judgement? Are there objective standards to refer to?
Some states licensing structure leaves this entirely up to the judgement of the PE in question.
Do private professional associations in those states enforce more specific limitations?

It is typically up to the judgement of the PE. For example an engineer may be qualified to design commercial buildings but may have no experience, and therefore be unqualified, with medium voltage installations. Likewise a specialized engineer may be qualified to design complete underground shelter including ventilation, plumbing, and electrical.

Not much different from an electrician deciding what is in their skill set.

 

[pv_n00b]

I'm licensed in several states and one other thing I wanted to toss out there is that I have never seen a state PE board that is proactive in looking for offenders. They depend 100% on people filing complaints to identify violators. So if you see a violation you should report it or the violator will not be caught.
Unfortunately, the response from the state PE board to a violation is often a slap on the wrist. There is really not much they can usually do to someone who is not licensed other than a small fine and a letter saying please don't do it again. If the violator is licensed, they have many options: suspending the license, terminating the license, and fines.
I occasionally help the CA state board doing engineering reviews of cases and I have alerted the board to a number of people and companies in violation of the PE Act. They all settle out of court for small fines and a promise not to be bad in the future. Most of the unlicensed people never read the PE Act and just did not know they were in violation.

 

[Phil Timmons]

I know that multi-discipline drawings often have stamps from each discipline on them. Phil, was there only one stamp on the drawings?

Sorry on the slow note back. One particular clown I see and have to clean up is a Texas Civil PE -- based out of Utah.

He stamps and signs (or cut-and-paste image file) everything and every page.

Only when a city plan-review busts them do they throw an alternate Electrical on the Electrical pages.

I would not even notice if the work were competent, because there would not usually be any issues to deal with.

 

[Phil Timmons]

But in whose judgement? Are there objective standards to refer to?

Well, at this point we all have to completed ABET schools. With a BS in our related fields. That would be a start.